Bach Partita No 2. in D minor
Bach Partita no 2 in D minor.
Before I attack this piece I was wondering does anyone have any warnings of certain areas, any common problem areas in certain bars that I should be aware of before making it a problem area for myself.
General thoughts on the piece would be nice aswell. Certain movements they like - I'm focusing on the Allemande and the Gigue.
This is part of my repertoire for my final year in college - end of year performance and I would really like it to be good.
hope to hear from you soon.
Thanks, Aine. x
Replies (60)
Hmm...I recall the Ciaccona being a "problem area" for me! But it's well worth the trouble to learn it.
The Ciaconna is hard... and possibly the greatest solo violin piece ever written. This whole sonata is an infuriating experience to try and perfect, but a joy to play.
I'm working on those 2 movements for my college auditions, and Dr. Ross, my teacher at Brevard Music Center this summer, told me that while he considers himself very conservative with open strings, the Gigue in this Partita was one of those that you wanted to have open strings, especially E. It gives it a more open, jovial, bright, giddy tone, I suppose, is the best way I can think of to describe it. Gives it more of a ring.
Hi Aine and Julia, I agree with your teacher about open strings in the Gigue. I suggest also finding fingerings in the slow movements that go up on a string, instead of playing everything in first position and crossing during a phrase which is too often done I feel in Bach in order to avoid a expressive position change. There is also a natural vocal element in Bach amongst other Baroque and Classical composers. Listen to great recordings of Milstein, Hilary Hahn, or Heifetz to get some ideas. Another thing to do especially in preparing the Ciaccona( if you do decide to performing it for an audition), I recommend splitting the piece into thirds, and practicing each third over a three day period. That way everything will stay fresh and you will learn the piece evenly. Often in performances of Bach (which I am guilty of myself) the openings and earlier movements are played better than the later movements and ends of movements due to simply spending an uneven amount of time on those areas. Best of luck!
Well I have never preformed it, but keep in mind it's bach. So be hard on yourself, and remember it's very techincal. Make sure it's very clean too. Have fun though. Sorry I wasn't much help
Greetings,
since these pieces are a lifetime?fs work it depends on how far each individual chooses to go.
One of the problems may be tempo ambivalence. You can listen to ten different recording of the Allemande and get the whole range of tempos from expansive/expressive to lively. Who can say what is right or wrong. However, you might bear in mind the anecdote Arnold Steinhardt of the Guarneri quartet recounts of how he was shown the appropriate dance steps for these pieces by a piano player which changed his concept of them. Are you willing to do that level of research?;)
Then there is the issue of modern sound, phrasing and attack versus the authentic stuff. It is an easy option to chuck all that out the window because it is a bloody awful noise compared to Heifetz et al., but that is probably a mistake. Take the time to listen to good specialists like Lucy Van Dael and even the cello players who have done the research. Players like Podger are superb too but keep in mind they are actually in the hybrid zone. You may never pick up a baroque bow but , another anecdote, Silverstein recounts how he picked one up without much interest and rapidly found his whole concept of bowing and phrasing in Bach change. And this was at a very late stage in his career just prior to his recording them, I think.
There is a useful book on Playing and Interpreting the sonatas which I think is a must read but I forgot the name. Scott 68, help me out here.... That points out some of the foibles of even some of the true Bach masters of the 20c like Milstein. For example, doing a ritenuto at the end of movements where Bach actually increases the number of rapid notes to signal an ending. The point being that if you rit on the rapid notes then they are slow and don?ft serve the purpose they were intended for. You can take this kind of interpretative point with a pinch of salt but if you are not aware of it then you are limiting yourself.
I think it also helps to really work at placing these pieces in a musical context. That might mean spending time studying scores of masterworks like the b minor mass and exploring the piano (?) music literally, or through listening.
All this is even before you worry about the purely technical aspects which have to stem from your overall concept which must be linked not only across all the movements but into the set as a whole. This partita is essentially reflection of the death of his wife whose name is woven into many of the motives (that is the reason for the double d at the beginning of the Allemande) and the c major is perhaps an expression of his own release from grief, redemption or whatever.
Idle thoughts,
Buri the burp
Buri -- the book you are maybe thinking of is by Joel Lester, "Bach's Works for Solo Violin," but its primary focus is on the sonatas. Still useful though.
Greetings,
that"s the one. But exactl;y the same principles apply. Wiothout a sense of harmony and structure the aprtiatas just sound like a load of ad hoc scales. And i can't count the number of times a fairly advanced palyer has played me a couple of these works and upon beng asked what the difference is between a sonata and partita their eyes glaze over and brain death sets in.
It doe sseem to be a curious quirk of violnists that we pick up a work and begin practicing it without actually knowing what it is, how the [piano part goes (or even if there is one), what the title means, what country the coposer came from, when it was written, why it was written etc..
Perhaps we just have too many damn notes to play?
Cheers
Buri
Good luck! I love the D minor partita. I've performed the Allemande twice (did decently the second time), and the Sarabande once (not so good...went too fast and munched some parts), and would love someday to perform the entire partita. The Ciaconna is indeed pretty much one long "trouble spot" ...
You are probably smart to start with the Allemande and the Gigue. Just don't underestimate the difficulty of intonation in the Allemande - it may look easy, but it's not. You have to pay a lot of attention to tempering (which notes in a line should any given stopped note be in tune with). Practice really slowly, with a tape recording. (I did this for a full month before performing the Allemande, and it still stunk the first time IMHO.)
For some reason that someone more knowledgeable could probably explain, I find the Allemande one of the most difficult pieces that I play in terms of tempering intonation correctly. Well worth it, though. I am a big fan of Rachel Podger's version of these pieces, btw.
Musically, I think there are a lot of decent, musically effective (if not musicologically authentic) ways to go with the Allemande especially. I currently tend to favor some longish pauses and rubatos between, say, the second and third note, for dramatic effect, which would probably give the period players a heart attack. (How long a pause I do depends on how long it takes reverb to die down in the hall. Churches rock for this.) This is one of those sections that I think has leeway for a lot of different styles.
Good luck! You're starting a journey that could easily last a lifetime. :-)
Francis
I'm currently learning the Sarabande and Gigue. The Sarabande is supposely a slow Spanish dance that drags the 2nd and 3rd beat together. My teacher said it has a funeral aspect to it, certainly not joyous. The Gigue is like a jig, a more lively dance. My teacher suggested me to think of drunken sailors, but then I played it too aggressively, like in really drunk sailors, so now he says it is Bach's imagination of how drunken sailors dance.
Yes, use as many open strings as you like in Bach. Baroque violinists weren't worried about using fourth finger. There just worried about getting all the notes and taking the easiest fingers for them.
The Allemande and the Gigue are great to play from the second partita.
The one major problem I had in the Gigue was keeping the tempo steady, so you might want to use the metronome a lot for the Gigue.
I also had some trouble finding phrasings in the Allemande wehen i first started it, until I started humming it.
Greetings,
I would be cautious about egneralizations like 'use a lot of open strings in Bach." Wether or not you use an open string depends on the pitch you require in the harmonic context, appropriacy of color andmelodic line. If you study the Szeryng edition you will find that he has thought in great depth about when open strings are and are not appropriate. For example, the opening of the gigue can be played with open strings but since Szeryng considered this to have four voices then each string represents one of those voices and accordingly, fourth fingers and string crossisngs are used. Galamian tends to choose fingerings more for conveninece which incmludes more open strings.
Cheers,
Buri
I second Buri's recommendation to look at Szeryng's edition. He gave a great deal of thought to his playing of the S&Ps which is one reason his recordings are so revered. His edition explains a great deal of the wisdom he picked up.
One issue with open strings, as my teacher points out, is that they sounded different in the Baroque period because of the gut. You have to take that into account in determining how much you want to use them, particularly the open E string.
Szigeti has garnered kudos from all the violin greats for his interpretation of the Bach S/P. He also has great pedagogical deconstructions of various parts of them in his books, especially 'Szigeti on the Violin'.
You should definitely perform a musical analysis of the various pieces before playing them. Figure out the rhythmic pulses and counterpoint, the tonal modulations, think seriously about fingerings and experiment with them, listen to as many recorded versions as you can both modern and baroque (and there are dozens...with no two alike), go through as many sheet music versions as you can, making sure that you've given the original a good look through. Then make choices.
Once you've got choices to the above, set yourself goals to achieve them. If you're a violinist of any merit, you will spend your entire life evolving musically around the Bach S/P. So as you begin so shall you go.
my only suggestion is to be aware of the tempo you take in the gigue. it has a tendency to want you to speed up 3/4 of the way through. other than that you're on your own. everyone has to find out what bach's music means for themselves and that's a lifetime journey.
Rick,
BTW, in talking about Szigeti, I have Szigeti's personal music of the Bach Sonatas which he used for his recordings.
What is interesting is that aside from the many bowings and phrasing marks, he wrote out all of the preparation notes (especially in 4 note chords as well as 3 note chords) and everything is in such great detail, it is remarkable.
As far as suggestions, ofcourse playing in tune and in time is a given, afterwhich it is best to formulate your own opinion about the work.
Szeryng is among my favorite recordings and these days Hilary Hahn as well.
There are other excellent recordings by Shumsky, Szigeti and Milstein which are all wonderful.
I haven't listened to Hilary's as of yet...actually, come to think of it, I've never heard anything played by her!
Hahn's is quite good; frankly, I never thought I'd hear a new recording of the partita that I thought was worth listening to--but Hahn's isn't shabby, I admit.
Having said that, the Milstein recording (Capitol) is best.
I'm a Grumiaux man ;-)
Greetings
Mr. Filimonov, you would be doing the world a great service if the Szigeti manuscript could be made available as a PDF file ;)
Living in hope,
Buri
Like Jonathan Frohnen - I'm a Grumiaux man for the Bach S&P.
I love Szigeti's performance. It's a bit different, but there's something about his sound that I love.
I just saw a DVD of Kogan playing the Sarabande. He does a double down on the first two chords.
Hi Buri,
I started that idea at least 10 years ago with Eric Wen, who used to work for STRAD. But we ran into some problems that had to do with family rights etc.
In my list of favorite recordings of the work, I forgot Grumiaux. :)
Superb addition Gennady ;-)
As far as appropriate style and feel for the dances goes, I think much can be gained from listening to harpsichordists, lutenists, and other "early music" players who have done the scholarship and are keen musicians as well (I would include violinists such as Rachel Podger and Lucy van Dael). You may not find the non-violinists playing these particular pieces, but the point is to develop a sense of what makes an allemande an allemande, etc. And that's not to say there's a set tempo for each dance, there's certainly plenty of gray area. I think some players go beyond the gray area, injecting too much of their own spin on the piece till it no longer works as intended, and I think some of Hahn's renditions are good examples of this (boy, can she play, though, and only 15 or so when she made that recording).
Good luck, I wish I were starting out on this journey. What could be better than working on the Ciaccona?
I had to sit thru a Baroque recital once, solo violinist with baroque dancer...
Gennady, you mean copyright problems? BTW I have some my own transcriptions... so do I need composer's relatives permition to publish them? (70 years didn't pass by yet).
Anything published before 1923 is basically public domain...when you get into items past this date it gets rather iffy.
check this out...
www.unc.edu/~unclng/public-d.htm
Szigeti's Bach rendition is so damn good! For many players, including Szigeti/Milstein previously mentioned, one has also to look at their own interpretations over time as well.
Gennady, that music of Szigeti's should be in a museum or in a shrine all of its own!
Greetings,
Mr. Filimonov, I was afraid of that. I predicted from your other postings you would have been more than willing to share.
Personally, I use the Szeryng edition most of the time since his fingerings and ideas in general are so logical (and compatible with my hands) but the little access we have to Szigeti via the aforementioned books show , in my opinion, an even deeper level of feeling for the color and tonal variety that can be integral to these masterpieces,
Cheers,
Buri
Rita,
It is not a copyright issue, more complicated than that.
The music is an old German edition, but it is Szigeti's music which he completely edited to suit his needs for his recording(s).
Bowings fingerings the whole works. That is what is interesting! He recorded the Sonatas twice. :)
ps:ten years ago I started on a project to make this document available in a new Szigeti edition with Eric Wen, who used to work for STRAD. But we ran into some problems that had to do with family rights etc."
Perhaps in time, I will be able to work things out and make it available.
Gennady, thank you for this posting. It would be the great contribution from you to the world history of violin art. Good luck.
Jonathan, thank you for answering my question.
Sorry, the previous posting belongs to me. I didn't realize that I used my daughter's login.
Hahn's chaccone puts you to sleep...all long slow, slurry bows.
Yehudi's chaccone got that bite, aggress and drama.
Hi,
I'm also just starting work on the Partita in D minor, specifically the Allemande and Gigue for now. There is one very strange bar in the Gigue, there doesn't seem to be a comfortable or obvious fingering for it. It's bar 35, anyone have any ideas or suggestions? I've never played unaccompanied Bach before, so if anyone could give me some background info that would also be wonderful.
Thanks :)
Cough up Szigeti's scribbles if you have them.
Milly,
I don't have my music in front of me, but my first thought when you said 'one bar in the Gigue' was the one where it's something like Bb F D F E C# then does that same basic pattern 3 times, slurring G/D/A strings together on one bow? Yeah. Dr. Ross, the teacher who started me on this, would always have me figure out my own bowings and fingerings, and then I would bring them in and he would say "this is good, this isn't, this is good but try this" etc. I told him I couldn't figure anything out for that measure. His response?
There is no good fingering.
I just play it in 1st position. And just make sure to practice it verrrrrrrrrrrry verry slowly a lot.
Jim,
Your style is extremely impolite.
I have already stated several times:
"........ten years ago I started on a project to make this document available in a new Szigeti edition with Eric Wen, who used to work for STRAD. But we ran into some problems that had to do with family rights etc."
Perhaps in time, I will be able to work things out and make it available.
If you would like to dish out a whole chunk of money and cover family rights issues, then give me a hollar, otherwise "Tace atque abi" and "Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris" (if Ceasar was alive, you'd be chained to an oar) :)
I'm in contact with a company that might be interested in a project such as this Gennady. But people, let's not pressure the man!
Well as many others have mentioned this is a monumental work of the violin reprtoire. I believe with all bach it must be highly emotional. But this emotion must be employed in a different manner than later works. In Bach I like to think of my bow as the singing component of my playing so that I do not have to rely so heavily on my vibrato for expressiveness. You should experiment where you like to play each type of stroke in the bow. Short notes should be slightly detached. Of course there are varying degrees of detachment that you should consider. Another bowing to be considerate of is the three slured note bowing: most prevalent in the Chaconne but also in the gigue and corrante.
Always keep your bowing strokes consistent. If you decide to make a slight break between a dotted eight and sixteenth then make sure you continue that pattern throughout.
Especially with the allemande and sarabande it is easy to become bogged down. First you must remember these are all dance movements... even the chaconne! In the sarabande the beat 2 is emphassized so organize your bowings accordingly. The allemnade is just an introduction to the partita so I prefer a moderate tempo.
A very tricky passage is the bowing in the courante where you have a line of slured sixteenths (i believe) and a separated sixteenth which leads into yet another run. You must practice controlling your bow so the seperated note does not stick out. (it takes alot of practice)
Good luck and be sure above all to think about everything that you do and reason why you do it.
haha whatever. You're chained to an oar from now on and you don't even know it. No, an anchor.
Aine, hey. I played this piece last year and yes it is quite difficult in sections. Mainly like all Bach it is the style you wish to play it at that is the main difficulty. Just watch the second page of the gigue, if you are like me and focussed more on the first page till you realise the second is slightly more tricky, you'll wish you had of started on it earlier. Anyways it's a wicked piece good luck with it.
Jim,
"Fac ut vivas" ( Get a Life!) Filius tu canis et cameli :)
ps: your faulty logic undermines your entire philosophy!!
Gennady, did you give that quartet a whirl?
I own you, Rasputin.
Jim,
Qui vir odiosus! Impudens es leno.
Es stultior asino!!!
I will reiterate: "your faulty logic undermines your entire philosophy!!" :)
Owned.
correction -
owned: Miller Waste Management, Inc.
Kalamazoo, MI
erratta:
currently in Bankruptcy as well as in denial of having "faulty logic which undermines his entire philosophy" :(
ps: but I applaud him for still loving music and the violin despite all the years in WM.
Milly, 'Szigeti on the Violin' gives a complete analysis of the 'Allemande' via comparative fingerings of his and Flesch's, as well as dozens of tips. Hence my recommendation (as well as analyses of parts of all the S/P).
As for the 'Giga' section you mention, I would say, humbly, it's simply a matter of what you prefer, all first with a few little stretches, or mostly second with one little stretch. As you know there are thousands of spots in the violin repertoire where a string crossing passage doesn't fit into one position.
I like Gregory Fulkerson's recording.
Gigue: Bb F D F E C# then does that same basic pattern 3 times, slurring G/D/A strings together on one bow
It's awkward, but what I do is 1st position with 3rd finger for the C#. 2 2 3 1 0 3
I agree, practicing slowly and probably playing the entire piece slower than you think will work. Szeryng does play it slower than the other recordings. I like his interpretation and the sound of his violin too.
Buri, Thanks for the note about Arnold Steinhardt's reminder to think of these as dances. I believe Anner Bylsma, the Dutch cellist, does the same for the Bach cello suites. He wrote a book about his analysis and research, called "Bach, The Fencing Master." Though I haven't purchased it myself, I've heard Anner Bylsma speak before, and he offers a lot of insights to all string players / musicians. His book is available in English, French and German (...maar helas niet in het nederlands). http://www.bylsmafencing.com/
Claire, that's the fingering I'm favouring at the moment but it's pretty awkward all the same. I was wondering if I was missing something obvious but it would seem not! I think I'll try it in 2nd position too just to experiment. The second page of the Gigue is harder than the 1st, which was a bit of an annoying shock to start!
Rick, I'll ask for the 'Szigeti on the Violin' book for Christmas :) Thanks for the recommendation.
"Gigue: Bb F D F E C# then does that same basic pattern 3 times, slurring G/D/A strings together on one bow"
The main challenge here is not fingering but bowing. Make sure that 'c#' is played with active upper arm up bow up to very frog. And the next bass sound should appear very bright, not 'scratchy'. Actually there is bass line: Bb, A, G (every first sound) which shows changing of harmony: VI-T6/4-IV7. All rest notes are the same (exept of the last one, which leads to continue same harmony in the next measure). So this bass line is very impotant. Don't ignore to 'show' it. About fingering... it is easy if you practice by chords, or, in other words, if you place fingers down 'earlier' than sound appears. String crossing... all notes should be even (I mean time). So it is good to practice this way: 1st time play emphasizing each 1st note; 2nd time-each 2nd;... and so on. You can even play these notes (emphacized) longer in time, with slight accent and louder than other rest notes. Again don't forget to start each section from the very frog with active upper arm.
Those are good points Rita! I agree that the harmonic change which quickly builds in the 3 note bass line is definitely resolved by the B-flat following, and one therefore usually hears a quasi-caesural aspect given to it in most versions.
I also agree in the necessity to be at the frog for the Bf,A,G so that the emphasis needed for each of the 3 notes can be rendered. It is the harmonic highlight of the Giga.
Tempi are also very important in all the S/P. The Giga was a lively dance and the continuous rhythmic structure must be there. Though I greatly admire the violinist performances given by Heifetz in his two recordings of them, I believe he plays them faster than the dance would allow. This pyrotechnical aspect has become somewhat, though definitely not solely, the norm in most versions. The problem is that the ratio of speed to the 16ths changes in relation to the crossing of the strings and ends up adding a slight non-rhythmic (in the dance sense) feel to the Giga.
Also important is the phrasing and the slurs. If you do a historical study of the versions of the Giga you will see that Bach's Urtext has been deviated from in this regard. Bach was an excellent violinist, it would have been out of character for him to write slurs where he didn't want them. Yet this is precisely what has taken place over the years.
Currently learning the Chaconne - amazing piece -I've spent a great deal of time up to now analysing it both harmonically and structurally. It's so amazingly deep...freaks me out constantly. Wilkomirska lent me her score of it from the 70's with her fingerings and bowings - she has such great ideas on it and is amazingly sensitive to the style and Bach's intentions. The copy is even signed by her hehe :D She told me couple of weeks ago that her recording of the Chaconne back then was overly romantic (higher positions and so forth) and she wouldn't dare play it like that now, her entire approach and view on Bach has changed, interesting to hear.
Sounds like Wilkomirska has gone through a change of direction similar to mine. I am currently relearning the Chaconne, having basically left my fiddle dormant for about forty years. It's becoming one of the most satisfying experiences of my musical life.
Don't approach any of the partitas as an invitation to show off your violin virtuosity. Instead work on the soul of the pieces. You might be interested in a recording from ECM titled "Morimur." Just do a Google search for it. It puts forward the theories of Prof. Dr. Helga Thoene. The recording will leave you breathless no matter what side you come down regarding Dr. Thoene's concepts. Dr. Poppen's renditions will give you one sampling of how baroque music ought to be played. Do find an acoustically "live" place for your performance if you can.
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December 1, 2005 at 04:55 PM · One of the things I enjoy about playing the Gigue is that you can sort of let the music carry you as if on a wave. It is nice to able to let yourself go with the music in that way.