V.com weekend vote: How do you deal with physical soreness from playing your violin/viola?
Oh my aching muscles!
I just had one of those weeks with a lot of playing, then two performances in one day of a concert that included the rather physically demanding Mahler Symphony No. 1.
"Where is the Green Room Masseuse?" I asked no one in particular. It's always been my imaginary quest, to get a "Green Room Masseuse" included in the union contract....
As much as I work to keep from injury and soreness, I do find that now and then I get quite sore. Playing the violin is physically demanding, and just as a heavy workout causes soreness, so does a heavy dose of playing.
Many of my violinist and violist colleagues have a regular appointment with a masseuse to help work out that deep-muscle tension that builds with a lot of playing, but in all honesty, I don't often do so myself.
Yoga helps me quite a lot, although when my schedule gets extremely busy - when I need it the most - that's when I can't find the time to do it! So I end up with the ibuprofen, which is not ideal.
Regular practice is one of the best ways to keep from injury and soreness - just as it is with regular exercise. If you run two miles every day, you arrive at the stage running two miles a day causes no soreness, it is just normal activity. If you don't do any exercise at all for six weeks and then you run two miles - you will certainly feel sore the next day!
But even the person who exercises regularly might get sore after a marathon.
How do you cope with soreness from playing your instrument? Please participate in the vote, and then tell us all about it. Do you get sore? Do you have ways of preventing soreness? If you get sore, what do you do to alleviate the pain?
You might also like:
- Injury Prevention For Every Violinist: Body Mapping with Jennifer Johnson
- Optimizing Posture and Movement for Pain-Free Violin Playing
- Eliminating Pain with the Alexander Technique, with Wendy Waggener
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Replies
Fortunately it's been years since I've had a significant physical issue. But my practice routine is not super aggressive, either.
As from ~ Elisabeth Matesky, Original Heifetz - Milstein Apostle {#3}
As just above Steve Jones, I have hardly been 'Sore' even following a 17 hr German recording of Dmitri Shostakovich's 1st Violin Concerto in a min, Opus 99, with a major German Orchestra and in a Major Recording Space known well to Followers of the Bamberger Symphoniker in Bamberg!! I put the lack of soreness down to extremely Good Practise Habits from Day One & to one's rare violin studies with both JASCHA HEIFETZ & later in London, privately with the Only Peer of Mr. Heifetz, NATHAN MILSTEIN!! Soreness is caused by many contrasting and mythical Ideas about Bowing and via true false understanding of The Bow and too many Analysts who Have Never Studied nor performed major Violin Concert Repetoire & On Tour when one must Carry at least 5 or 6 Major Violin Concerti for an International Touring Violinist Concert Season ~ To add to these Must Do's, one Must be in superb physical Condition having done much exercise yet Smart Plus Exercise which builds Endurance and little by little as if one is preparing for Olympic Sport Competition which Great Violin Playing Is!! Mr. Heifetz emphasized an absolute necessity of being physically strong and with trained agility to combat real fatigue incurred whilst on International Concert Violin Touring!!
Our Requirements demand we be in Good and Healthy also repeated Condition with Summers Off yet devoted to Tennis or Table Tennis outdoors and a serious approach despite being Summertime when many relax yet do not move Body Limbs!!
A very critical factor is the near Global Idea so many violinists still possess about Bowing & a Vast Ocean of Violin Teachers proprogating what I term, 'The Straight Bow Disease!' which is to be lain at the doorsteps of thousands of truly uninformed Violinists, cum teachers who sadly never had the blessing of opportunities to up close observe the Milstein Acclaimed Bow Arm in All Solo Johann Sebastian Bach Sonatas & Partitas composed for Violin, later arranged for Other String Cousins on Viola and Violoncello, all of whom still are 'indoctrinated' by False Ideas of an Old World Idea {aka Christopher Columbus's Enemy re The World Was Flat & his Ship would Fall Off Earth when reaching the Horizon mankind could Only See and Then in 1492!!} so to get to my Huge Message: My being NM's First Private 'Guinea Pig Heifetz' Pupil was Revelatory being Led by The Master of The Bow to move and Think-Imagine rounded strings when changing a Down Bow to an Up {V} Bow at Bow Tip versus Old World Thinking of Just Turn the Bow to go Up
But On the Flat String!!! Absolutely NO NO!!! Not going to gift any a NM learnt Bowing Lesson on Violinist.com & Much as I like Laurie Niles, I Know The Immense Difference in How One Does Think and SEE in One's Mind what I have just simply tried to describe yet minus an EM In Person showing of This as it may elude many and many highly Intelligent and fidel to Improvement Violinists happening to SEE THIS which IS a Principle of The Milstein Masterful Bowing to Start!! After a Long And Refreshing Break during The Pandemic, I might give an Elisabeth Matesky Taught by Nathan Milstein Violin Bowing Master Course in the US or back to London in the not too distant future, but it will Never Work if pupil's are Blind w/Old Ideas clinging to them even though the Bow Shakes and/or a fine violinist/violist trying to play Chords of Three Strings in Unaccompanied Bach does Not Work due too much wrist and forearm plus elbow and On & On yet missing The Deep Root Cause: Rounded Bowing on differing places on an Individual String and 2 strings PLUS 3 Strings But HOW! GOAT Nathan MILSTEIN taught me HOW and I was a Sponge knowing that Something Vital was missing and in my determination to be able to navigate I opened up my Franco-Belgian early taught views to embrace The Master, Milstein's extraordinary Bowing on All Four Strings as an Organ & with 'Regular' Violin Bows!!
To recap some of what I have {never thought of doing here} started to touch upon, one has to be almost Starving as a concert soloist to CHANGE!!! I wanted the Secret, aka, The Freedom to be able to make the Music I could HEAR in My Mind and I Knew this NM Opportunity would Never Come again and ran with it opening my thoughts to be so fine yet stymied in given chording ideas to Opened New Ideas and with Nathan MILSTEIN, urging me on and Showing me just
How he did All he did which placed his Violin Artistry = Heifetz & even in specific sections of Prokofiev's First Violin Concerto, passed that of The JH bow which Mr. Heifetz decided to Not go ahead and Record Prokofiev's First Violin Concerto full well knowing NM w/Giulini owned this Marvel of a Violin Concerto!!! {And when I come to given Chapter/s in my Book, I may offer an NM decision he told me about regarding the JH Sibelius Violin Concerto with Immense Respect!!!}
I guess "Class Is Done" for Today, Sunday, 27th of October, in 2024, and I truly hope to Return again!!
~ ~ ~ Sending Violinist Greetings from Chicago ~ ~ ~
.. Elisabeth Matesky /Carrier Heifetz-Milstein Bow Legacy ..
Fwd ~ dmg
Something else - namely, special stretches without the physical therapy. I do these as preventive steps, not remedial.
Music practice and working out have been part of my life since the late 20th century. I work out 4 days a week: upper body muscles first day, lower body the second, then 1 day off. Repeat cycle, then 2 days off. This way, each muscle group gets 48 or 72 hours of rest per week. As a beginner, I experienced the typical DOMS (Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness); but now I haven’t had soreness for a very long time.
And I don’t just dive right into a session by lifting barbells and dumbbells right away. I first walk 5 minutes, then stretch, then lift. Resistance training is highly anaerobic; so, once I’m done with it, typically 75-90 minutes per session, I walk again for 5 minutes to get the blood pumping through the whole system so that it doesn’t pool in the extremities.
Same with music practice. I don’t just pick up one of my instruments and start playing. I first walk, then stretch, then play.
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EDIT - in light of Raphael’s post, below: I strongly believe in adequately warming up. My warm-up routine takes me about 20 minutes - bow-arm exercises; left-hand finger gymnastics - e.g., simple Schradieck drills; shifting; double-stops. I do these before attempting any rep - or even any scales.
I voted "something else" as I'vr never ever had any problem at all.
“Something else” because the only time I experience soreness is when I am unconsciously tensing my shoulders and the cure is to stop doing that.
Occasionally if I’m playing a 2nd violin part that is nonstop scrubbing, extended playing on the D and G strings and/or a lot of playing with suspended bow, my right arm gets very tired but the cure is the same: stop doing that.
I feel like anyone who hasn't played, say, a Dvorak, Tchaik Mahler or other super-nonstop-scrubby symphony in the second violins or violas simply doesn't have the right data set to say something that implies "I never get sore and if you weren't playing wrong you would't either."
That’s not what I said. I specifically described that situation as one where my right arm gets very tired, and if I’m not mindful, my right shoulder also tenses up. But I don’t seek out any kind of treatment for it. Whenever the torture stops, that’s when things go back to normal.
One of the really interesting things about teaching violin is how different our individual anatomies can be and how that affects us. I have never had an overuse injury, but friends who play as well or better than I do have had some serious ones. I don’t think the difference is in who is playing correctly (we all are); I think the difference is in how our tendons, muscles, and other internal parts are constructed. For example, I am guessing that the bones in my wrist are less constricting on the nerves passing through than somebody else’s might be.
I thought the question was asking how each of us individually responded, and that’s the question I answered. I apologize if anything else could be inferred from what I wrote.
I'd never seek to imply I'm playing "correctly"! My strategy for heavy scrubbing duty is to drop both elbows onto my chest...
No Mary and Steve, I didn't not mean that in a personal way to you or anyone, and Mary actually said that you *had* experienced the scrubbing!
Also Mary - you bring up a good point - we all have such different anatomy and need different set-ups, etc.
Steve, good strategy. I tend to start feeling it in my neck with the scrubby passages, and I have to remember to just cradle more with the hand, raise the fiddle, let up on the neck, and also send the motion farther down into the forearm, wrist and hand, so I'm not tensing the shoulders.
The irony is that good form really can help alleviate some pain issues, but as with any physical thing, the more tired you get, that's when the form can fall off. I notice this in an exercise class that I do with weights (Corepower) - if I'm completely exhausted by the end of the class, I simply forego the weights because I know I'm in danger of doing them with bad form, and that's when injury can happen.
Greetings, Julie O'Connor submitted this comment (apologies, I accidentally deleted it when trying to delete a double-post down to a single one):
I do a combination of these - I've been having some significant pain issues due to aging, misuse, and a bicycling injury. I haven't been able to practice much over the past 2 years. One thing I have found really helpful is anti depressants. There are classes of these drugs that really help with chronic pain!
I have often imagined that when the Fed. OSHA discovers that we are vulnerable to Repetitive Motion Injury our entire business could be shut down, or maybe they would just decree that all Wagner Operas must be edited down to 3 hours.
Rest; --was my answer. The big rest is; after a weekend of multiple jobs, take Monday off. The small rests; For orchestra sessions take advantage of the multiple short rests. I like to let my left arm hang straight down when there enough rest time. For me, it is not playing long or loud or technically difficult that is risky, but rather continuous or soft playing that is tiring. Last weekend, after a rather big program, two rehearsals and two concerts, the conductor asked me if I was sore. I said no, just a little fatigued at the left shoulder, and the Mozart concerto was more tiring than the Beethoven # 5, because it is more strenuous to play soft and light and off-the-string. (I am 2nd violin section). My worst episode was playing Viola for a Mendelssohn Oratorio with continuous background noodling,--no rests. I got a pinched nerve at the left side of the neck that required physical therapy.
I am recently, finally, retired from many decades of Mariachi violin. I never had those physical problems even though the weekend schedule could be brutal, long hours, multiple jobs in a day, always loud, trying to match the trumpets. With one band at a restaurant the schedule was every week, 6 nights per week, 4 hours of playing time spread out over 6 hours of time. It wasn't a physical problem because there were lots of little rests and you alternate between playing and singing.
When I wrote I never get sore, I was not one of those that would say, "and if you weren't playing wrong you wouldn't either." I don't even know if Laurie's comment is directed at me since I never said that. Probably not.
I do have the data points (playing 2nd violin for the aforementioned symphonies if that is a gateway to admission.
I've merely been lucky: lucky with my setup which seems perfect for me, with my anatomy which I didn't choose, etc. In this manner I'm merely stating in other words what Mary Ellen said which seemed to be that everyone is different, and that even with great technique, some will have problems, some won't.
My 'something else' was 'change stance to a better one'. Failing that, my answer might have been 'rest'.
Reading all the comments it seems that maybe we should distinguish between tired muscle type soreness and actual injuries like repetitive stress injury.
The first happens to everyone I believe. I certainly have sore muscles in my right arm after playing second violin for a while with long stretches on the G string. But recovery takes a few hours of not playing.
The only real (though harmless) injury I have suffered happened in a one week string quartet work shop: The skin over my collarbone was scraped bloody by the metal piece that holds the chinrest (after six days of two rehearsals daily plus some practice).
It seems that some people are far more vulnerable to repetitive stress than others. I have never had even a trace of it, not from the violin nor from work with a computer (not always in ergonomically ideal situations). It's just dumb luck.
It seems to me though that a teenager violinist who is prone to it ought to be advised against a career as a professional violinist.
Michael no, I didn't mean it in a personal way, I'm just in the midst of a lot of scrubby gigs!
The distinction between injury and soreness is a good one. I'm really talking about soreness for this vote - though when pain arises, one should always pay attention because it could lead to injury.
When I first switched from violin to viola I got tennis elbow in my left arm. I searched the web and found a set of exercises (primarily wrist extensions) which cured it, and I haven't had trouble since.
Last Sunday I performed the Bruch g minor with orchestra. This was preceded by weeks of practicing, three rehearsals with the orchestra and a private rehearsal with a pianist. The Bruch no.1 is not exactly the Seitz no.2! And to be a soloist with orchestra you can’t be a milque toast. You need power, intensity and presence along with, of course, musicality. If I could survive all that with little in the way of soreness at the tender age of 72, I guess I’m doing something right!
Part of it is a tricky and hard to describe balance of staying relaxed and being intense where called for but not tense. It’s not the same thing. Dig in and release. Use weight but not the pressure of unnecessary muscular constriction. And I am a big believer in warming up - first, away from the violin with different starches, arm rotations, etc. then on the violin with easy finger and bow exercises. At orchestra and chamber gigs it never ceases to amaze me how few string players do this. Winds band brass do. Brass often wind down as well. I also find it soothing to give my hands and arms a nice warm bath in the kitchen sink.
I also alternate intensities in my practicing. I alternate what I call high impact and low impact practice. High impact is very much like performing - full intensity, fortes, full vibrato, up to tempo, etc. In low impact, I back away from all that and the predominance of my practice is low impact.
Certain kinds of passages do militate against staying relaxed no matter what as do certain kinds of non playing activities. We are all different and have to see what works for us and what doesn’t. The time I just spent typing all this on my phone has tired my fingers and wrists more than fiddling for the same amount of time would. Time for a nice soak!
Voltaren. Since my "issue" is osteoarthritis (thanks to my genetic background) I need some topical medication to ease the aches.
I tried Curcumin and it worked BUT it also bothered my liver.
A doctor recommended Capsaicin but it doesn't work as well or as long as Voltaren.
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October 27, 2024 at 07:24 PM · My "something else" was in lieu of "I don't get sore". Never have, even on those occasions (coming less frequently these days) when I've played orchestral or chamber music morning, afternoon and evening.