Trouble with flats and sharps

January 11, 2006 at 09:46 AM · You're going to get more helpful responses if we know something about what you do know about key signatures. Do you understand why they exist, and where the whole and half steps are in any major scale? What keys are you absolutely sure about?

I like to show the c major scale to my students on a piano, where all the whole and half steps fall naturally in place. They sing the scale using solfege, feeling the half steps between mi and fa, and between ti and do. They see it on a piano, they then build the scale on their instrument connecting the solfege with the notes, feeling the half steps between mi and fa, and between ti and do with their fingers. You need to have a solid understanding of whole and half steps. C major has no accidentals because all of the notes already fall in place without needing them. Look at the keyboard. When you start on C and end on C, the white keys that have no black keys in between (E-F, B-C) are the half steps, and they are right where they need to be, between the third and fourth notes (mi-fa) and the seventh and eighth notes (ti-do). the rest of the notes are whole steps because there are black keys in between them.

To understand why a key signature is what it is, you have to understand the major scale and how to build one. Pick any note--for instance, D. If you want to build a major scale on D, you need to raise the F to F-sharp to have a half-step between the 3rd and 4th note. You will also need to raise the C to C-sharp in order to have the half-step between the 7th and 8th note. D major goes D-E-F#-G-A-B-C#-D. On the violin, the half step falls between the 2nd and 3rd finger, on both the D string and the G string.

Now that I've thoroughly confused you, you could also look at it this way. If you can memorize the name of the key signature, at least you'll know what the first note of the scale is, right? Flats are easy. 1 flat is F major, and all the rest are named after the second to last flat in the key signature. If you see four flats, look at the third, and that's the name of the key: A-flat major. Find an A-flat on your instrument and construct a scale by placing half steps between the 3rd and 4th note and the 7th and 8th note of the scale. It really helps if you label them with the solfege and just remember mi-fa is always half-step, and ti-do is half step. To memorize the names of the sharp key signatures, use your strings. One sharp is G, 2 is D, right in order like the strings. Play the scales until you are comfortable with hearing and feeling where those half steps are.

There is no shortcut. You need to first fully grasp the sound and feel of a scale, and then you need to practice playing all of the scales you want to be able to read music in. Then, when you play the notes, you'll have that under your fingers to guide you, and it will all make sense, and your ear will kick in and let you know when you've missed an accidental.

I'm sorry if I either just spent a long time explaining something you already know, or spent a long time confusing you. I love teaching this stuff, and it makes more sense when I can give a lesson in person, but I think it's possible you can teach yourself. Assuming you have a teacher, I'd recommend raising this issue. Don't be afraid to spend an entire lesson or two figuring it out. It's essential.

January 11, 2006 at 04:48 PM · Thank you Emily. My teacher has been trying to go over the key signitures but hasn't really gone into it alot. I only go to lessons every 2 weeks for half an hour so we really can't get too much done if I want to work on my Suziki also. I'm going to read and re-read what you wrote and try to understand it a little better. By the way, I am Luke's sister and I accadentaly posted this on his account....

January 11, 2006 at 05:22 PM · Emily's advice is excellent. There is no substitute for knowing, understanding, and doing the scales. That said, you will need lots of practice because this is so essential and will not necessarily come quickly.

January 11, 2006 at 05:26 PM · practice many scales

January 11, 2006 at 06:07 PM · I hate scales.

January 11, 2006 at 06:23 PM · Start handing out earplugs then heh.

January 11, 2006 at 06:25 PM · Trout don't have scales; you might find them more palatable:-)

January 12, 2006 at 04:47 PM · I think practicing chromatic scales does wonders as far as the intonation of sharps and flats is concerned.

January 12, 2006 at 05:33 PM · What my main trouble is is just reading the flats and sharps...... Not knowing how to change the placing of my fingers or things like that...

Am I making any sence?

January 12, 2006 at 06:10 PM · If you don't like scales and don't want to practice them you're going to have a very tough time figuring out how the sharps and flats relate to the spaces between your fingers.

Regarding having trouble reading them: Simply put, a flat (looks like a lower case "b" in italics) means to flatten the note a semi-tone and a sharp (the pound sign) raises the note a semi-tone. But like I said, this won't mean much until you practice scales and learn the relationships between the fingers in each key.

Preston

January 12, 2006 at 06:39 PM · I wonder if what Kim is having trouble with is more the "key signature" part of the problem--or knowing when to read a "c" as a "c#" etc in the body of the music.

If you look at the key signature before you start playing, you will see which notes are supposed to be sharp or flat--but you won't necessarily remember this when you start playing (at least that was my experience). But, if you take the key signature, and from it figure out the scale it is (either by rote memorization, or by playing each note) and then play that scale a few times, you will then feel the finger pattern that goes with that key, and with that hymn.

It worked like a charm for me.

Hope that helps.

January 13, 2006 at 02:40 AM · Emily, that's a great explanation of scales. I will try it with my students. There are only two problems: I don't own a keyboard and I can't sing in tune. Actually, I prefer not to use the keyboard as a learning device. I can't stand it when someone explains something, like Dorian mode, by talking about black and white keys on a piano. I simply don't relate to that. A more serious problem is that I can't carry a tune with my voice. People often say, "Sing this first, so you know how it sounds, and then you can play it." I'd appreciate your advice.

A shortcut or aid to memory in learning scales is the book Elementary Scales and Bowing for Strings, by HS Whistler and HA Hummel. The book has diagrams for finger placement on each string for each scale, followed by scales and broken chords with various bowings to make it more interesting. The problem is that very few of my students will practice anything in this book.

January 13, 2006 at 04:57 AM · Pauline, I use the piano because I can visually show the lack of accidentals that way. You can just explain C major by using the violin, but they have to be firmly rooted in C major before you can build from there, and it seems most students are started in the keys of G, D, and A.

You know, I mostly teach it the way I do because A.) I learned my key signatures on the piano before the violin, and B.) I feel strongly that all musicians should have some keyboard training, regardless of their choice of primary instrument. So that's how I do it, although I'm sure other ways work just as well.

January 13, 2006 at 05:46 AM · > In earlier times the progression of notes was catagorized in modes, the

> way we do them today is just much more "normal" and that is with the major

> and minor scales.

Uh? I didn't know they made diatonic modes obsolete!?

Kidding aside, i've spoken to only a few violin players, and was surprised that no matter their level of knowledge in musical theory, they didn't know their modes. A major scale simply happens to be a scale in ionian mode (CDEFGABC in your above example) and its relative minor (which would be ABCDEFGA) is an aeolian scale. In other words, modes are simply a way to give a name to each of the 7 tones of the diatonic scale.

So, in the key of C major (or its relative A min.) there are 7 modes: C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian, F lydian, G mixolydian, A aeolian, and B locrian. When you change keys by removing a flat or adding a sharp to the key signature, the "lydian" note is raised a half-step and becomes the "locrian" note of the next key. For example, in D minor if you remove the flat from the B, then Bb lydian (D minor / F major) becomes B locrian (A minor / C major) - then if you add the # on the F, F lydian becomes F# locrian in Emin/Gmaj, and so on.

Another way to represent modes, would be to take the "shape" of the scale, ie. the intervals between the notes, like you mentioned: "wholestep wholestep halfstep wholestep wholestep wholestep halfstep" (let's say 2212221 if we count the number of half steps) and then cycle through all the modes by removing the first interval, and putting it at the end, to make the "shape" of the next mode. So, the shape of a scale in each mode would be:

Ionian: 2212221

Dorian: 2122212

Phrygian: 1222122

Lydian: 2221221

Mixolydian: 2212212

Aeolian: 2122122

Locrian: 1221222

..... i hope that makes sense.......

January 13, 2006 at 05:52 AM · Luke, the Violin Scale Charts by John A Sarkett are very helpful! I bought, and downloaded them from the internet. There are 28 pages covering all the major, minor scales and arpeggios, ascending & descending. Each scale has a picture of the key signature, and a diagram of the staff with the notes of the scale alongside the fingering chart so you can learn what everything looks.

Eric, Thanks for the thorough explanation and layout of the various modes! It's the best & simpliest I've seen.

Over the course of years I've come to the conclusion that the first instrument a person learns sets the cognitive pattern for how he think about the layout of scales. I learned on a piano and so I visualize in a linear fashion using the keys in my mind's eye. Especially true when figuring out chordings. But I've noticed people who learned a string instrument first map out scales or chords using hand patterns. It's taking me a long time to think in hand patterns without first seeing those black & white keys. It seems that it'd be easiest in the long run to teach hand patterns (shapes) to begin with. I'd been playing for about 8 years before someone showed me that scales and arpeggios all up and down the fingerboard have specific hand shapes. The light went on! Okay, sometimes I'm dense, but I really wish my first teacher had pointed it out! I knew about wholesteps & halfsteps but not the big overall picture of hand shape. That simplified learning other keys, especially the flat keys.

Luke and sister, get the Violin Chart and practice those scales and arpeggios. Pay attention to intonation, handshape, and finger placement. You'll find there are patterns that will help with those flats in the hymnal.

January 13, 2006 at 05:16 PM · Thank you all. I don't have a key board or piano, so I don't really understand all that stuff about black and white keys... I can do accedentals pretty well, but it is the flats and sharps next to the 4/4 of 6/8 and their fingering that is confusing me.

January 13, 2006 at 05:43 PM · Hi Kimberley,

Aha! So it is as I guessed--you are having trouble with the *key signature*--that is what all those flats and sharps next to the time signature are.

Remember--whatever line has a flat (or a sharp) in the key signature has that note as a flat (or sharp as case may be) throughout the piece--unti lthe key signature changes.

If at some point, a note has to be played natural, then it will be noted with a "natural" symbol if its default was a flat or sharp. That "override" lasts one measure for all notes on that line--so if the next note, in the same measure, goes back to the flat, then it has to be noted as such...

So, what you do is to look at the flats and sharps, and play them, to find the scale or mode that is being used.

The tricky part is that the key signature will not put the flats on every "d" or every "e" but only on one of them. For instance, the scale of G major has one sharp--f-sharp--which is always annotated on the uppermost line. (If you want, you can copy it down to the space above the lowest line :)

If you can easily sing a major or minor scale, then you can play any scale too--you just have to know where it starts. So, you can do that analytically, or by experiment.

The analytical approach:

Take the example above, with only an f-sharp annotated. This lays out that you have a half-step between f-sharp and G. You know that there are only two half-steps in a major scale--one is between the leading tone and the tonic, and the other one is between "mi" and "fa" (between the maj3rd and the) 4th. So, try that f-sharp out and see where it all goes. If you guess that it is between mi and fa, then you know that the f-sharp would be "mi". A whole step down to "re" would take you to e, and a whole step down to d would say "g-major" but wait--you would then have to have a C# as the leading tone below the tonic (d) and so, no, try that f-sharp as the leading tone to a G major. now you can sing up from G to check it: G-A whole step is Do-re, A-B whole step is re-mi, B-C half-step is Mi-fa, so at this point I hope you can see where it is going.

Now, for hand shapes:

Once you have figured out what major scale the key signature is associated with, you will now know what hand shapes are required. Once again, using out G-major, we can see that we will have a high 2nd finger on the G strng and the D string, and a low second finger on the A and the E string. We can also see that we will have a "normal" 3rd finger, and a "normal" 1st finger (whole tone) on all strings.

If you had a scale of A-major, then you'd have high 1st & 2nd fingers on all four strings, but you'd have high *3rd* fingers on the G and D strings.

January 13, 2006 at 07:30 PM · Hi Kimberly & Luke

For starters here's a simple layout in the major keys:

The numbers of flats symbol in the key signature and which notes are flatted:

1 flat in the key signature = Bflat All B’s will be played flat which means that the finger playing B will be right besides the A - a half step ( the scale is Fmajor)

2 flats = Bflat & Eflat All B’s & E’s will be a half step (Bflat Major)

3 flats = Bflat, Eflat & Aflat. All B’s, E’s & A’s will be a half step. (Eflat Major)

4 Flats = Bflat, Eflat, Aflat & Dflat (Aflat Major)

5 Flats = Bflat, Eflat, Aflat, Dflat & Gflat (Db Major)

I take it that you do read music?

Hope this helps.

January 14, 2006 at 12:13 AM · You should learn to play more by ear and practice tuning. Practice tuning by playing notes against open strings. Scales may help you, but really you just have to get used to playing in different keys. To play the tune of a hymn you shouldn't need to look at the music.

January 14, 2006 at 12:41 AM · Luke, you have to listen to and play lots of music to feel comfortable with more complex key signatures and compositions. Scales alone won't do the trick. Neither will playing every hymn in the world. Branch out, listen to all kinds of music, then play something you like to the point of where you like what you hear, then move on. After a year of playing dozens, or even hundreds of pieces with lots of sharps and flats, they will be a breeze.

I really mean it.

Imho, nothing else will work. Not scales alone, not music theory, not technical study, not indepth work on a complex piece. The ease in which you can play the complexity of the harmonic structure of a piece is directly related to the same brain component as sight-reading. Sight-reading improves only by sight-reading. Ipso facto, play more music.

January 14, 2006 at 11:04 PM · Sorry to barge in Luke, but why don't you try transposing the music. It's good to practice this because someday you might need it. All you do is raise the music one step up. So if it is a Ab move it up to Bb. And first transpose the last note. This will tell you what key it is in.

January 15, 2006 at 12:10 AM · Daniel:

First, I wrote this, not Luke, second, your not making any sence. Not to me anyway.

January 15, 2006 at 01:16 AM · i used to mark the notes with arrows going up and down to indicated sharp or flat. this was very helpful.

good luck!

January 15, 2006 at 04:47 AM · When you transpose music you put it in a different key. If you put it in a different key it's easier sometimes to hit sharps and flats. I do it all the time. And it's so I can play almost anything out of the hymn book. Even four flat songs.

January 15, 2006 at 06:00 AM · Luke, it's not as complicated as you think. The finger patterns of whole tones and semitones are the same in every key. So the key signature might be 5 flats, D flat major (or B flat minor), but the finger patterns are exactly the same as D major or B minor, only everything is a semitone lower and you don't use the open strings.

Furthermore, if you start with your first finger on the tonic on the G string, you'll soon realise that all keys use the same finger patterns across the strings. If your second finger is on the tonic, the finger patters change to bringing the semitone 'down within the hand' - and so on. I worked out a whole method numbering these finger patterns and learning which one to use in each key in each position. So the patterns for A major in first position are identical for the patterns in B major in second position and C major in third etc.

So my advice is this:

Learn to identify each key - there's plenty of information online and it won't take you long.

Then just sit down holding your violin like a guitar and work out the finger patterns for each key. You could number them or just think of them as hand shapes.

Good luck!!

January 16, 2006 at 07:44 AM ·

This is one point where guitar and violin are very similar.

I tend to avoid open strings when i'm leading/soloing, that way it makes it much easier to transpose.... let's say i compose a wicked solo in A minor, but then if i (or someone else) is writing a tune in F# min. and want(s) to use that solo in it (: (:

January 16, 2006 at 05:35 PM · So lets say a song I want to play, the key signiture is in bflat, so the 1 on the a and the 2 on the d are low?

January 16, 2006 at 05:43 PM · Kimberly:

Yes, but that isn't all. Low second finger on all strings (B flat, F natural, C natural, G natural), low first finger on all strings but the

G string (E flat, B flat, F natural), normal 3rd fingers, and Low fourth finger on the A string (E flat - you can't play your open E in this piece unless there is an accidental making the note an E natural) Hope that helps:)

January 16, 2006 at 05:51 PM · Try playing scales.

January 16, 2006 at 05:50 PM · bFLAT: yes, but actually you have a low 2nd finger on all four strings, and a low 1st finger on all but the G string. The finger pattern on the A and E strings is identical: Low 1st, low sencond, low third and high third.

You'll find them easily enough--just play a b-flat on the a string, then play a low b-flat on the G string, then sing Do Re Mi up from there and match it with your fingers.

January 17, 2006 at 01:45 AM · *sarcastic remark*Oh, that's very nice how Bill just ignores my previous post. Or maybe he feels that only he is worthing of explaining such things.*end of sarcasm* (Just kidding:))

January 17, 2006 at 03:25 AM · Thank you, but I don't understand why it would be on all strings. I thought since it was on a bflat all b's would be low not all other 2fingers.

I am playing scales.

January 17, 2006 at 05:35 AM · Hi Kimberley

Is any of this making sense yet? Do you have a teacher who can help? Take a look at this:

http://www.violinonline.com/fingeringchart.htm

(Sorry, I don't know how to make a direct link. You can copy & paste the address to go there.)

It's a very simple picture of the notes & which finger plays it. It may help you to visual the difference of why some notes get played with a low first or second finger when playing the FMaj (Bb). That's where the knowledge of scales comes in, or to be able to hear when the next note will be a half step or whole step away.

When you have a Bb it is now a half step up from the A, so the finger plays close to the A. If you play with a high second finger on the A string then that C is sharp and you need to play C natural - the low second finger C.

F on the D string is also natural so it also is a low second finger. On the E string you want to use a low first finger.

Read Emily's earlier post where she explains the whole step, half step concept. Hold your violin and finger the steps. See if it makes more sense now.

Keep working at it, you'll get it yet! :-)

April 24, 2007 at 02:34 AM · Kimberly I feel sorry for you, if you've been playing this long then I don't think Suzuki is a very good method, if you can't play flats very well. Unfortunately, (Not to brag) I play for the church very faithfully, and I have to play 5 flats regularly, thankfully it sounds half decent.

April 24, 2007 at 04:02 AM · I think using a guitar, personally, is best (if you're going to use a different instrument at all) than using a piano.

It makes it much more complicated than it should be to use an unfamiliar to teach an unfamiliar...unless the student already knows piano well. (especially for beginners and intermediate students).

Guitar kind of shows how the finger placements go...not exactly, but how it moves up, the steps become closer together, gradually.

My advice, is try not to think of it as "flats and sharps" so much. Know that each pitch is a different place on the fingerboard and a different pitch/sound (you cannot just count on placing the finger down somewhere).

Does that make sense? Think of fingerboard geography...there's a woman who leads the National String Projects from Austin, Texas and she gave a BRILLIANT presentation here at Crane a couple of years ago.

If you're having trouble with how D, D# and Db are different, maybe you'd be a good candidate to begin with fixed do...then they're just completely different all together and it's more obvious by the name we call them... Re, Ri, and Ra.

These things are always hard to explain over the internet and be able to tell what's making sense to the listener, but I hope I gave you more useful advice!