Can Adult Learners reach Advance Level of Mastery in the violin?

Edited: January 20, 2022, 12:33 AM · On a couple occasions, I've posted a video on this forum that was taken from my music stand while rehearsing the first movement of the Dvorak Terzetto at a chamber music workshop. It's not a polished playing at all as it was an hour into learning the piece, but it's fairly obvious from the sound that all three players are at least very competent amateurs. In fact, it turned out all three of us were adult learners who had become section leaders in community orchestras, and two of us were almost entirely self-taught at the time. (However, the least-experienced member of the trio had played for 13 years.)

Edited: January 19, 2022, 4:09 PM · She seems very intelligent, talented and motivated. Perhaps she is getting bits of teaching from here and there, but she would still be better off having a teacher guide her. It does seem like she is able to listen to herself and I see no obvious bad habits in her playing. Perhaps she records herself and thoughtfully listens and attends to what she hears needs work. Perhaps she has good resources for finding answers to technical issues. It seems like she talks about emphasizing relaxation in her own playing, and her sound is pretty solid, and so is her intonation. Her intonation suffers a little in the Bach that she tries (you can hear my intonation issues on a video on my Youtube that I posted, but trying to record it made me go back and rework some things), but she seems set-up for eventual success.

I wouldn't work on the Bach Fugue at where she is at. I would place a bit more focus on etudes, but her approach seems to be working for her in terms of keeping her motivated, and probably building her technique.

Mastery is a vague term. I would consider whether she is meeting her goals. Does she perform? Do people want to listen to her perform? (That's not everyone's goal, but it's an external marker of progress, if we are looking for one to measure by). She's not going to make her living performing, but she might find herself being a good and thoughtful teacher.

Get a good teacher, everyone!

Edited: January 19, 2022, 4:29 PM · Not to sound like a broken record, but having teacher makes all the difference in the world. It just takes too long without one and you can develop too many bad habits left to your own devices. With a teacher, I believe it is very possible for an adult to become a quite competent violinist in a decade, but the distractions of everyday life and making a living are not trivial. People go back to professional schools as adults all the time, why is learning violin so much more difficult ?

January 19, 2022, 4:41 PM · Most adult beginners will give up the violin inside of year. Very few will make it past 5 years. The few who endure for 10 years or more whilst studying and practicing dutifully will achieve success. I have been told that mastery requires 10,000 hours of thoughtful practice. At 2-3 hours per day that’s roughly 1,000 hours per year. Thus after ten years it is very possible to gain mastery. This is my plan as an adult beginner at least.

January 19, 2022, 4:46 PM · I suspect the person posting those videos is both smart and extremely dedicated. I'm forced to wonder how much further ahead she would be if she got weekly lessons from a good teacher. (I'm guessing that she might be getting some input from a professional on an occasional basis, even if she's not taking steady private lessons.)

The question of whether or not adult beginners can eventually reach an advanced level is ground that has been tread super-frequently, so you can search the forum for past discussions.

Everyone agrees that given enough time, practice, and good teaching, an adult learner can reach an advanced level. There's nothing inherently limiting about being an adult, other than the luxury of time and energy.

Adults are also more limited in the resources at hand for musical training; the whole ecosystem of youth training orchestras, music camps, masterclasses, etc. are set up for kids, and adults are generally excluded from those opportunities. This isn't fatal for becoming a good player (and a good colleague in chamber music or orchestra), but it does require the player to more aggressively seek out parallel learning opportunities to acquire those skills.

Daniel Kurganov is not an adult beginner. He was a "late starter", i.e. someone who begins learning in their teens. He had the opportunity to attend conservatory at a more or less normal age, and so forth. There's a huge difference between starting late -- when you still have the luxury of teen and college years to focus entirely on the instrument -- and starting as an adult who presumably needs to earn a living by working full-time.

January 19, 2022, 4:52 PM · Now that I go back and look at the YouTube comment thread, that guy Mit set a time limit of "within 10 years" in his comments.

Getting to an advanced level within 10 years of starting the violin doesn't happen for a lot of children much less adults. Assuming little kids start around age 5 (yes, we hear about kids starting at 3, but they don't progress that fast at that age), they've got 'til roughly age 15 to reach "Bruch level". To get to that point, we expect kids to regularly practice 2 hours a day and to take weekly private lessons from a good teacher.

If an adult can devote two or three hours a day to violin-practice, they'll make good progress. Most adult beginners don't have the kind of devotion to stick with it intensively for a decade. (The few that do generally do fine.)

January 19, 2022, 5:15 PM · Greetings,
until you define ‘advanced’ the whole discussion is pretty much moot. As far as I am concerned , an adult -can= reach a really high level in ten years. But, there are certain areas that make this a little challenging. That is, first, years of misusing the body (this is pretty much universal) leads to unnecessary stiffness and second, -sometimes- adults have a history of psychological negativism that hinders progress. Any adult can potentially overcome these issues But I think we have to acknowledge their existence.
After that, go for it. I hope every adult beginner here has complete faith that they can do great things!
Cheers,
Buri

January 19, 2022, 5:40 PM · Sometimes the journey has as many rewards as the destination. In fact, sometimes the journey has more rewards than the destination. The kind of commitment demonstrated by so many is a remarkable achievement in its own right, and should give ample success, insight, understanding, satisfaction, and meaningfulness to enrich one's life, no matter what the outcome.

January 19, 2022, 5:47 PM · As always Marcus, perfect!
Cziechimulibulidingbat of Flow theory fame points out that true happiness lies in challenging and overcoming our limitations, not sitting in front of Friends reruns with a brewski.
Cheers,
Buri

January 19, 2022, 6:14 PM · Buri: Thank you, and bless you. And bless all those who have made the journey, whether or not mentioned on this discussion thread.

Edited: January 19, 2022, 7:19 PM · I can run a piece through a dozen times with the most garbage work ethic and stumble all over the place and when I wake up the next day, it will be better than when I started—just by virtue of my aimless dabbling.

My father can labour away at the same Beatles tunes on piano for 10 years, as he has, and never get any closer to playing them well.

My point: there is clearly something young people have that older folks don't when it comes to learning. I'd guess about 9 in 10 adults can't be expected to master a new skill at all, and the remaining 1 in 10 would have to put in a whole lotta time. But that's just my estimation. And who knows how much of that has to do with the amount of free time people have?

Edited: January 19, 2022, 9:06 PM · ‘I'd guess about 9 in 10 adults can't be expected to master a new skill at all,’
Well, that rules out lifelong learning straight off the bat.
I took my MA when I was 25. I did well in Aikido when I wa sin my late 30s. My Japanese has improved exponentially in my mid fifties and the 30 day yoga challenge I am doing with ‘Yoga with Adriene’ is changing my posture and balance significantly and makes me feel thirty years younger.
And I’m an under achiever par excellence. I must be one of the 10% master race I suppose. Pity my wife doesn’t think so….

Edited: January 19, 2022, 9:58 PM · The woman in the videos plays at a solid intermediate level and I have no problem with her bashing through the Bach fugue, although it's my prerogative to listen to someone else like Gidon Kremer.
If you don't want to read nastiness from haters, then don't post videos on YouTube that are open to comments.
Out of curiosity I listened to one of her videos that was made at the "seven months" point -- the famous Meditation from Thais.
One possibility is that she's not a beginner -- she might be a returner who studied the violin as a child. That would mean she's lying, but some people do that.
Or she might just be really talented and dedicated, in which case I have to agree with Lydia in wondering how far she would be now with weekly lessons.
Noticed that the violin case behind her in the Bach video contains two bows in addition to the bow she's playing. Just an observation.

January 19, 2022, 11:20 PM · My answer is definitely NO. The violin is too difficult but she is doing extremely well after only six years. That alone is very encouraging for many people.

Edited: January 20, 2022, 12:30 AM · If I remember correctly from her older videos, Lydia's guess is correct and she is getting at least occasional professional feedback. And even a limited amount of feedback can be extremely valuable for a dedicated learner with a high degree of self-awareness. Pointers from other people in community orchestras were how I was able to progress as far as I did before I started taking lessons.

January 20, 2022, 5:00 AM · I don't like the way the guy was writing in the comments, and I believe it is possible for an adult to achieve mastery, however I do believe it's possible ONLY if they have ample time as well as thousands of dollars to spend on the best teachers who specialize in setting up beginners.

January 20, 2022, 5:23 AM · Not sure I want to see Jef Bezos play. Unless he has the good grace to practice in his dumb spaceship…

January 20, 2022, 10:30 AM · I think the true answer is that no one really knows. I’m of the opinion that it’s definitely possible, but I’m biased. Most people that think it’s impossible have that opinion simply because they’ve never seen it done before. But they fail to consider that they’ve probably never seen an adult practice 2-3 hours a day for 8-10 years under the tutelage of a good teacher. Until someone presents me with an adult beginner that has practiced for 8-10 years for 2-3 hours per day with a good teacher and still not advanced, then you can’t say it’s impossible. I whole heartedly believe that the main barriers for adult beginners are lack of time, lack of commitment, and lack of a good teacher. Of course, I do think it becomes more difficult to start in middle age, rather than younger years, but I still think they can become competent violinists if they put in the hours and have a good teacher. There is no theoretical reason why an adult cannot become an advanced violinist in terms of physiology or mental ability. I will say that I believe that intellect plays a much bigger role in how fast you progress than age does. I think that if you are an intelligent person that has good critical thinking skills and you can notice problems and find solutions, then you will be far ahead of someone just sawing on the violin. I guess brain plasticity does play a role here, but if you are constantly engaging in cognitively stimulating activities in your regular life, it shouldn’t be an issue. Just anecdotally, I’ve never seen a stupid person that plays the violin.

January 20, 2022, 10:50 AM · @Gordon, violinists under the age of 18 are mostly adorable and cute, so their playing at any level is tolerated and even enjoyed. After that age you're expected to be good. The only other adults whom you can expect to actually want to hear you play are your immediate family and other adult violin students at your own level or lower.

January 20, 2022, 10:54 AM · If you have talent, have done music (but not violin) as a child, get started on the violin at, say, 30 years old, have a good teacher, put in all the required hours (which would be *much* more hours than an amateur adult violinist who already (more or less) knows how to play the violin and wants to improve), then, yes, I can see them at around 40 being, possibly, quite advanced.

January 20, 2022, 11:06 AM · It's entirely POSSIBLE to survive a parachute malfunction. Maybe you'll get really lucky and land in a really soft tree or giant pirate-themed bouncy thing in the middle of a kid's birthday party. Maybe if you're jumping in the midwest a big hog waste containment pond or huge haystack.

It'll probably still hurt.

So yes, absolutely anything is possible.

January 20, 2022, 11:26 AM · This post is a variation of one that appears on v.com from time to time: can someone who does not start violin under the age of, say, 10, have any chance of becoming a top tier international soloist. I think @Scott makes the point well. Achieving an advanced level of mastery can occur, but it is rare and takes an exceptional combination of favorable circumstances.

I think that most of the folks who do achieve such a level already play another instrument very well and have a sense of musicality that they developed early on that instrument. Also, they have lots of time, a good teacher, and a minimum of distractions. For most adult beginners who continue to pursue the violin, as someone has already pointed out, the journey is what is rewarding, getting opportunities to engage in a wonderful, social activity that gives pleasure to others. So, I think that is what it is all about. However, if you think you want go further than that, by all means, knock yourself out and good luck.

@Buri - as always, your insights are right on the money. Treat yourself to a Kirin and watch a good Youtube.

Edited: January 20, 2022, 11:52 AM · In my opinion, the demands of highest-level violin playing are the least ergonomic of all instruments. (I exempt viola playing only because playing a viola at such high positions is virtually impossible without specially crafted instruments designed specifically for that purpose - other wise it would win that "prize.")

Also my opinion: Violin "mastery" means playing at those high levels rarely achieved by amateurs, even those who have played from childhood.

If my opinions are valid, then Mspolkadotz has not achieved that mastery, even though she has achieved a great deal. I think she demonstrates a strong awareness of her own physical abilities and how they function and how to coordinate and improve them. This can be very rare in adult learners (of all physical activities).

I had a pair of adult students 15 years ago who were quite rare, a boy-girl couple in their mid-20s, who had never played string instruments. They came every week for 6 months to take their lessons together, he on violin, she on cello. They had both played wind instruments in high school and she had continued through college and was also a sight-singer. When they stopped their lessons after 6 months to move from California to Florida, he was in Suzuki book 4 playing the Vivaldi A minor concerto and she was into Suzuki book 6. That was 14 years ago.

I just heard from them this Christmas Day for the first time in 14 years. They had both joined a community orchestra in Florida after moving there and apparently she (Sarah) did very well at that - but then they decided to travel the world - which they did (as long as their funds held up) - and finding themselves in Thailand 10 years ago they loved it and have lived there ever since. (No more word about their subsequent musical activities.)

But cello playing, despite its many challenges is far more ergonomic than violin playing.

Edited: January 20, 2022, 7:48 PM · As a violinist friend has put it, are you good enough that people will pay money to listen to you?

If one is not an aspiring professional violinist, then it really doesn't matter how low your standards of "mastery" is and I mean that in a good way. Being an amateur means you get to do is for the love of the instrument, music, etc.

As for the negative comments, just don't feed the trolls.

Edited: January 20, 2022, 1:27 PM · Gordon says:
"Someone who takes the violin up at 18 is not noticed if they are good at 38."

That's very true. It took me several years to learn that I wasn't the only late-starting string player in my current orchestra, which plays professional repertoire on a 4-5 week rehearsal cycle. There's a violinist who started as an adult and joined the orchestra after playing for 16 years, and there's another violinist who started at 15 in a small-town school strings program and only had really good teachers as an adult. Adult musicians' backgrounds are rarely publicized.

Similarly, a couple years ago I looked through musician bios on a buunch of professional orchestras' websites, and found that the majority (including every single one of the major London orchestras) had at least one string player who started at high school age. But no one really notices without pulling up all the musician bios. Granted, we're not talking about adult starters in this case, and it's a tiny fraction of professional string players, but it's related to the larger point of highly skilled late starters simply not being recognized as such.

Edited: January 20, 2022, 2:08 PM · This isn't a comment on any violinists or on the seriousness of the above discussions, but rather on the ridiculous way our society is currently focusing on musical talent.

Perhaps what we need is a new TV violinist competition show....MVWET - Masked Violinists With Extreme Talent.

A panel consisting of one child prodigy, one adolescent violin student, one famous virtuoso, one retired violinist, one professional orchestral violinist, and one adult amateur all sit and listen to one violinist contestant at a time, each hiding behind an elaborate curtain. With lights flashing and audiences clapping, the panel laughs at each other and makes jokes while the each violinist plays. Any winning contestant who began playing after the age of 12 is immediately disqualified.

January 20, 2022, 2:43 PM · To Cotton's claim that children have something that adults don't: They do. They've got parents who enforce discipline and don't let a day go by without practice.

An adult can faff around for ten years with an instrument, and not make any progress. A child might do that if they have laissez-faire parents, but the ones that you see do well are the ones with committed parents who arrange their schedules to ensure the kid practices, possibly supervise practice to make sure it's productive, hook the kid up with opportunities and the best teachers, and so forth.

An adult might very well keep playing for fun even if they're not making any "progress". A parent who is grooming their child's resume for a competitive college is highly unlikely to support them continuing to play (at least insofar as they're taking lessons) if they're not making progress.

Edited: January 20, 2022, 2:57 PM · "Being an armature means you get to do is for the love of the instrument, music, etc."

Very true, but if you love music you don't want to butcher it, do you?

Seriously, we are all answering the wrong question. Since adult beginners rarely enter careers as violinists mustn't the question be: What level of violinistic skill needs to be achieved to make violin playing an enjoyable and sustainable hobby? After all, the more advanced a skill the smaller the repertoire that requires that skill; it becomes a question of how much effort you want to spend for how much musical reward.

Mileage on this will vary. But if for example your spouse has an urgent errand to run every time you open the violin case your satisfaction will suffer.

For myself I'd say if you can give a tolerable rendition of most of the Beethoven sonatas you are in pretty good shape.

January 20, 2022, 3:13 PM · Some of the reason for so few advanced adult students is simple statistics.

Anyone who has taught knows that most children never make it to an advanced level-- let's say playing a reasonably convincing first movement of a Romantic concerto by memory, or an entire Bach solo sonata. Maybe one in a hundred?

The statistical problem is that for every 100 children that start violin lessons, maybe one adult will. That one adult is likely to be NOT be the one that has some amazing level of talent and discipline. They are likely to just be average, with all the typical adult issues and baggage, including a destructively high level of self-consciousness.

It's popular to insist that Chinese kids have some special talents, but the fact is, vast numbers start lessons, so statistically, yes, more will make it to being advanced musicians. Why do we see so few fine violinists from, for example, Namibia? Is it because Namibians are less talented or hard working? No--there are just fewer violin students in Namibia.

Edited: January 20, 2022, 3:57 PM · Being a armature just means you are
1. the rotating coil or coils of a dynamo or electric motor
or
2. a metal framework on which a sculpture is molded with clay or similar material.

January 20, 2022, 4:19 PM · As someone who has taught an ungodly amount of adult beginners, I can attest to the fact that the reason more adults don't reach a high level on the violin is primarily a combination of what Scott and Lydia said.

Kids get at-home coaching from their parents. This "coaching" can range from simply telling the kids to practice and making sure they do it, to perhaps actually paying attention in lessons and pre-digesting the information for the kids at home. Adults don't have at-home coaching, except in the rare instance that they have a partner who is a musician, but even then, this generally leads to a weird power-dynamic and it will fail.

Then, as Scott noted, it's a statistics problem. There are less adult-beginners than there are kid-beginners. You're going to get a lot less "Cream off the top" if you have less milk to start with.

Another really big factor is just the stress that adults have to deal with. I've noticed a tremendous difference in the success I have with 17-year beginners vs 21-year old beginners, despite there not being that much of a difference physiologically. The reason I've found for this is that anyone over 18 usually comes into lessons with some degree of baggage from the week. They're struggling to "make it" in life, and that takes up a ton of mental space. So even if if they have time in a week to practice, it's unlikely that time will be "learning prime-time" where their brain is open to new things. More than likely it will be half-focused, stressed practice, which as we all know isn't much better than no practice at all. Sometimes it's worse than no practice.

But adult beginners shouldn't read all of this and lament, because the main point is this: if you can manage your life to where you get rid of all the factors holding you back during practice, then you can succeed on the violin. Get rid of unnecessary stressors, get a practice buddy or someone that can keep you motivated to practice, and then put in the time. If you do those things, it's likely you'll succeed.

Bonus reason for failure: arthritis and accumulated injuries. If we're talking about adult beginners over the age of 50, a major factor is arthritis. Flexible fingers are a MUST on the violin. It's very difficult to play if your joints don't have a proper range of motion. And of course, the older you get, the more likely it is that you will have broken a bone or injured yourself at some point in your life. Of course, it's harder to learn properly if you have a permanent injury.

January 20, 2022, 7:49 PM · Andrew, I didn't even know what armature meant. I guess now I do. My French is better than my English but I guess I just can't spell.

January 20, 2022, 8:29 PM · Albrecht, there are people singing badly at karaoke bars everywhere and it's a perfectly sustainable and enjoyable hobby for them. Can't it be the same for violin?

January 20, 2022, 10:17 PM · Does it matter? I'm probably at an intermediate level, I'm thoroughly enjoying myself, and to the extent that COVID permits, I'm making a contribution. As Isaac Stern pointed out, you don't have to be a concert soloist to be pure musician. (In so many words.)

It's not so much about the destination as it is about the journey.

January 21, 2022, 6:50 PM · I'd say the answer is of course adult learners can master the violin (or any other instrument). There was one case of a lady who started in her 50s after retirement and was playing (well) in a community orchestra in under 10 years. I think having a private teacher is extremely important, though I personally also watch a lot of online videos as a supplement. The bottom line is it depends if the person is willing to put in the work.

January 23, 2022, 8:43 AM · YES what Sander Marcus said in his first comment! As an adult returner (played through highschool but not super seriously, started again at 58 or so four years ago) who will never be 'good', I wanted to be good enough to play chamber music, and I am so absolutely thrilled I can barely stay in my seat now that I play second violin in a wonderful quartet. As I have mentioned before on here I get so excited I can barely stay in my seat as we work our way through Hayden, Borodin. I practice a lot between sessions to make sure I can keep up! This to me is the fun of being on this violin journey, fun that I can attain and sustain and build. Much the way I love hiking, taking long walks, really, in the woods, around the bay, but I would not even consider climbing Everest or anything even close to that. The journey for me is just where I want to be, and involves lots of very pleasurable 'work', growth, and pure fun.

Edited: January 23, 2022, 12:01 PM · Andrew in your case I'm going with the dynamo!

@Ron Black this is the 7-month one.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2Jo7QR_tGI

January 25, 2022, 7:29 AM · A great post.
I started violin in my twenties and after a very disrupted time due to life - emigrating, kids etc - I got distinction for Grade 5. Then I became a pub landlady so the violin stopped. Now years later at age 49 I treated myself to an upgrade as I missed playing so much. Will I ever become advanced? (Forget mastery - Paganini is mastery). It no longer matters.
Always doubting myself because I started late in my twenties served only to take some of the joy out of it then. Now, nearly 50, I am much more at peace with enjoying the journey knowing I am progressing is the main thing. How far will I get? I have stopped caring and consequently found less tension and far more joy in the process. I am comfortably at terms with the fact that I did not start as a child and will never compare to a player that did. Instead I find these accomplished players inspiring and helpful and so long as I make progress that’s the joy for me.

January 25, 2022, 11:47 PM · Late to the party but I also read the reddit violinist page and this question is in their FAQs:
https://new.reddit.com/r/violinist/wiki/faq#wiki_i.2019m_xyz_age_and_i_just_started_playing_violin._can_i_become_a_professional.3F_.28or_something_to_that_effect.29

Clearly, variations on it are asked frequently.

I think it's good to have reasonable expectations because the reason many people quit is they underestimate the costs of what they're getting into. I do feel like as a comeback player on another instrument, a great thing about almost any instrument is that (1) you can have a lot of fun, (2) there are more places to play than you realize, and (3) you can do the activity at almost any cost point.

January 26, 2022, 12:14 AM · Greetings,
Stephanie wrote that ‘Paganini is mastery.’ That’s perfectly true from the perspective of aspiring pros and whatnot but, the more I think about it, the more unfair it is to impose huge, value laden targets on adult learners. ‘mastery’ for an adult could perhaps just be left as where they want to go and what they want to do. It’s not really my business…:). If an adult wants to be good enough to play in an amateur orchestra and they reach that goal then for them, that is mastery. If they have a goal of playing concerto x and they reach it, that is mastery. I think part of the angst that Heifetz felt was that however good he got, he knew he was never going to achieve his personal concept of ‘mastery.’
Cheers,
Buri

January 26, 2022, 12:18 AM · „Cziechimulibulidingbat of Flow theory“- Stephen, that made my day! LOL

January 26, 2022, 12:36 AM · Concerning the question, I have met very few professionals who started at a higher age, one is my mother’s cousin who started at 14, and became concertmaster. Hence, this, at least, is possible.
I haven’t seen an example of someone, however, who started as a real adult, say, at an age above 20, for example. But these people have already made other decisions for life, so maybe we haven’t come across someone who really has similar conditions as a child: having won in a lottery or having married someone rich, in order to be not responsible for making one’s own living.

Anyway, I wonder if there is some analogy to learning languages. There are some really impressive persons who learn a new language as adults and reach almost native speakers’ level. But it is always an “almost” - a nearly perfect grammar with sentences more elaborate than the ones of uninterested native speakers, but every once in a while, still a word with a false article (in German). Or some slightly strange pronounciation. So much work and dedication, and still only coming close to how an uneducated five year old native speaker is talking.
Whatever the reason for this is, maybe there might be some according problems when it comes to learning an instrument. Maybe not! If some scientist did some research, I would really be interested in the results.

January 26, 2022, 6:39 AM · Current concepts of brain development suggest that the brain is most "plastic" in youth, and can create new functional pathways up to about age 25, after which neural connectivity is essentially established, and even begins to slowly decline. THis suggests a brain development mechanism for the observation that starting at a young age is optimum, and that the clock is ticking to create what must be extraordinarily complex pathways connecting auditory, sensory, motor and emotive "circuits" to excel on the violin. Adult learners may be able to make up some of the difference, but it's sobering to think that the ship has sailed before 25.

Edited: January 26, 2022, 8:11 AM · I wonder if adults can focus as well as children (I wonder also if children today can focus as well as children say from the 1970s). Focus is important but it seems there are more distractions these days (hand-held personal computers being one). I have reason to doubt that the human capability to focus has changed over time, but I wonder if the environment is as conducive for deep and sustained concentration.

Edited: January 26, 2022, 11:37 AM · The 25 year old age limit for brain plasticity was debunked. It is true to say that your brain's plasticity decreases with age, but they’ve found that you can also increase it at any age by regularly engaging in cognitively challenges tasks. People have strokes and traumatic brain injuries in which they lose multitudes of motor skills and many of them can make full recoveries by creating new pathways in the brain.

January 26, 2022, 11:13 AM · Charles, I'm in my mid-50s and I think my brain is very plastic. Like PVC pipe. That kind of plastic.

January 26, 2022, 10:27 PM · Christopher - what you say about adult plasticity is strongly supported by clinical evidence, largely from stroke and similar brain lesion recovery. Respectfully however, we are talking about two different things - prior to brain maturity there is active development of new pathways. This has great potential. After about 25, plasticity can indeed be demonstrated, but it sharply limited. If “adult” plasticity has similar potential, patching for amblyopia would work in adults, but it is clearly known to futile after about age 10. The child brain has developmental potential that by clinical evidence, the over 25 can’t match. Incidentally, scientists do not “debunk” scientific theories - it is always a competition for weight of evidence.

January 29, 2022, 11:30 AM · "the more I think about it, the more unfair it is to impose huge, value laden targets on adult learners..."

Everyone is backing away from what "mastery" means now in an effort to avoid pointing out the obvious: Mastering the violin as an adult is basically impossible, just like becoming a high-level gymnast or ski racer. No one wants to admit it, of course.

It's true that much of the literature is beyond even seasoned, talented pros. I wouldn't require, for example, someone to have mastered the Bartok solo sonata to qualify. Who has that kind of time anyway?

Yet there are far more humble goals that an adult learner will never likely achieve, such as a typical audition list for even a low-level. poverty-wage professional orchestra. Don Juan? Mozart 39? Shostakovich 5? Mendelssohn Scherzo? I don't think those are huge, value-laden targets. That's just what it takes to get in the ground floor for a low-paying gig. The chances of the adult mastering even the various shades of spiccato are practically nil, and that's a basic aspect of classical playing.

You can't just call any level whatsoever "mastery" if it suits your purposes. You might as well say "my definition of mastery is Suzuki book 1!"

I think a solid, competent grasp of a modern audition is a good definition. It shows competence in all the aspects of the violin.

It doesn't mean you have to win, but you have to be able to shift, vibrate, read, bounce and distribute your bow, have a rhythmic steadiness, a decent trill, double-stops, intonation, and a sense of musical style.
In fact, these are all required for any kind of decent bachelor's program. We're not even talking "mastery" here--just competence. The lacking of any of the above would seem to preclude any discussion of mastery.

I know it sounds extreme to shut the door like this, but if I'm wrong I haven't seen proof otherwise.

January 29, 2022, 3:47 PM · I know a guy who started playing in college, and became a full-time pro in his thirties. (These days he's a principal player in a decent regional orchestra.) It's not impossible but it does require a lot of dedication, and being the recipient of excellent teaching the whole way.

However, he had the benefit of financial independence. This seems to line up with my assertion that it's time to practice, likely more than any other factor, that separates adults from children.

Edited: January 29, 2022, 7:30 PM · As mentioned above, I know a violinist who started as an adult and plays in the kind of elite community orchestra that plays the full range of professional rep on 4-5 weeks of rehearsals and auditions accordingly. That may not be "mastery" as defined by being competitive in professional auditions but it would be reasonably competitive for entry into bachelor's programs if the violinist in question were younger.

I can't quite call myself an adult starter, but I'm playing in the same top-tier community orchestra, and might as well be an adult starter considering that the only teaching I had before my thirties was in community orchestra rehearsals. I still have the long-term goal of being competitive in professional auditions. But even if I hit a ceiling where I am now, getting this far after starting out with virtually nonexistent teaching suggests that a dedicated adult learner with excellent teachers and sufficient practice time should be able to go much farther. (As Lydia indicates, having time to practice is a major factor. My fastest progress was between ages 24 and 27, a period when I never had more than part-time employment and was able to practice 3+ hours a day fairly consistently.)

I tend to believe that reasonably accomplished adult starters are much more common than is widely thought -- a small minority of adults actively playing string instruments, but not that small a minority. They simply tend to go unnoticed because, once they reach a certain level of competence, they're no longer easy to identify as adult starters.

January 30, 2022, 6:50 AM · There is a book entitled "Violin Mastery" published by Dover and edited by Martens. Several great masters of the time were interviewed and asked to discuss their definitions of violin mastery among other topics.

Jascha Heifetz commented, "to me it means the ability to make the violin a perfectly controlled instrument guided by the skill and intelligence of the artist, to compel it to respond in movement to his every wish. The artist must always be superior to his instrument, it must be his servant, one that he can do with what he will."

Fritz Kreisler takes it further, "I do not believe that any artist is truly a master of his instrument unless his control of it is an integral part of a whole. The musician is born - his medium of expression is often a matter of accident. I believe one may be intended for an artist prenatally; but whether violinist, cellist or pianist is partly a matter of circumstance. 'Violin Mastery,' to my mind, still falls short of perfection. In spite of the completest technical and musical equipment, if the artist thinks only of the instrument he plays. After all, it is just a single medium of expression. The true musician is an artist with a special instrument. And every real artist has the feeling for other forms and mediums of expression if he is truly a master of his own.

Edited: January 30, 2022, 10:43 AM · Between the ever-moving target and ever-shifting goalposts, it's difficult to even pin down what exactly the outcome of this ought to be.

If we're pointing at "mastery" being only that of what Heifetz and Kreisler have achieved, then 99.9999999% of violinists will never get there. The human factor in the concept of artistry makes it such that there are no guarantees. Scott's very-reasonable take on the technical scope of achievement is accurate--this is why there are so few people who start playing as adults are able to get that far. The YouTube commenter though, is completely clueless--their own failures don't encompass the entire experience for everyone else. I've personally known a few people who started as adults on their instruments who play and teach for a living, and unless one knew their individual stories, one would never be able to guess they didn't start as little kids.

Lydia is totally on the mark about time. It's why we as teachers focus so much on getting the intensive technical work done during a student's younger years. A kid in Pre/K-3 has significantly far less academic and social demands on their time.

I started learning tennis as an adult in graduate school. At one point, I was playing 3-4 times per week, along with conditioning and training sessions with my coach and a ball machine. I was thrilled to make observable progress from month-to-month, and now enjoy social tennis with others. Despite the 8+ hours a week that I put in for 5+ years, I offered zero competition to my coach's twelve-year-old child, who had been on the courts since they were big enough to stand. There is a consistency, power, and accuracy in their abilities that only comes from having the time and motivation to cultivate those characteristics...something like twenty to thirty hours a week, and it is difficult to find that time when one is busy with the jobs, family, and other things like fill one's life.