Would you tune to 444?
A quick poll: would you feel comfortable permanently tuning to A=444?Would you have worries about your violin’s structural health, especially if a fine vintage instrument, or a higher possibility of breaking strings? What if your orchestra required it? Tweet
Replies (84)
Wouldn't want to. My violin sounds better at 440 Hz.
And, I definitely would not tune my piano to a 444.
444 is not gonna help your strings lifespan, the more tension they are all the time, the quicker they go false.
Regarding it being bad for the violin, I think it depends on what strings you use and the height of your bridge. If you're using Dominants on a low bridge, tuning to 444 can't be harmful. If you're using Evah Pirazzi on a full size bridge, it can be not great depending on your violin.
For your specific violin, you could choose the string gauge to match the tension, preserve the optimum response.
I stay away from anything having to do with bright . . . no like bright. Like mellow. And, my violin sounds more mellow at 440 than 444.
I haven't really compared the effect on the E string, between tuning to a 440 A and a 444 A. But likely, I would prefer my E string at the lower of the two pitches. (Again, no like bright.)
It wouldn't surprise me if there's a certain inherent, "natural" frequency to which a violin might be tuned. It's my understanding that violins were tuned to relatively lower frequencies, when my violin was built. (1820-30) It seems to me how violins were generally tuned (at the time) would influence how new violins were then being built. Thereby, I can understand why I might prefer tuning my particular instrument to lower frequencies. (440 vs. 444)
To complete my response . . .
My favorite string is the A. I really enjoy playing on this string. While it's mellow, it's rather loud, and it projects very well. When I'm playing, my violin sounds pretty even and nice. But, when I listen to someone else play on it, it's surprisingly loud, and as I mentioned, it projects well.
My next favorite is the G string, because of the deep sound I get near D. Of course, these notes are enhanced by the open D next to it.
Then the E. While it comes in last, it's still a nice string. I've experimented with different rosins to optimize the E. I use gold-plated E strings (Peter Infeld Red), and they have a nice complex voice that I like.
In all of this, I'm giving insufficient credit to my bow, which is excellent. I brings out the voice in my violin in a way not achievable with any other bow that I've tried.
And Neil - can you really detect a 1% decrease in "mellowness"? I know I couldn't.
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit".
Yes, there has been evidence that fake sound adjustments (sometimes known as "psychological sound adjustments") can please some players.
"It's threads like these that really set off alarm bells about the level of general "emperor has no clothes" type nonsense in the violin world."
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Paul, there is indeed some of that going on in "my" business (which I find highly embarrassing), but there are also a lot of good people who are more skill-based than bullshit-based.
Plus, it might really screw with the violists.
Now, here's why I asked:
I've heard of people that tune pianos to 444. Why? Because this puts C5 at a frequency of 528 hz, supposedly a "healing" or "soothing" frequency. I should add that piano tuners often get asked to tune to other A frequencies such as A432, for supposedly beneficial health/psychological benefits.
I'm skeptical of the whole thing, though, for many reasons. The first is that, in a piano, if tune A444, you cannot, due to inharmonicity, obtain 528 hz at C5. The other is that no one spends their time playing one note, whether A4 or C5. We play many, many notes.
A bunch of this came back into focus when a famous American nutcase politician put requiring a low-pitch A on his party platform. There was some mystical justification, and poorly thought out arguments that Verdi and Mozart endorsed that frequency. I think the real motive was for him to get endorsements from famous European opera singers, who wanted their high notes back.
I prefer tuning to 432Hz or lower. There's no scientific basis for this preference.
The Cardus Major is measured as 4 heartbeats at a relaxed and comfortable state, whereas the Cardus minor is produced by your actual 4 heartbeats in the imperfect moment. Therapeutic (consonant) frequencies come at ratios of whole numbers or 1.5 to the Cardus Major, and dissonant frequencies derive from those ratios to the Cardus minor.
As with all beautiful and proper music, Cardus scales are of unequal temperaments, and therefore cannot be accurately rendered on the clinkity-clunk...er, I mean, the piano.
during the day and with health, mood, age, etc? If you’ve ever been hooked up to a monitor, you’ve probably seen that heart rate varies minute to minute or even second to second. Seems about as useful as a standard measurement as a cubit.
Why not use blinking frequency, or the jaw’s natural gum-chewing frequency?
There is a big difference between number and value. Units of measurement are arbitrary. The second is partly historical, derived from the ancient Babylonians who used a mixed base 12 arithmetic to divide time into 24 hours/day, then 60 minutes, 60 seconds. When the French invented the metric system they did not try to change the clocks.
My guess is that caffeine will raise the pitch of pharts, so that's why pitches went up a lot when Europe started interacting with the coffee cultures.
You guys are funny. Is that really true about coffee? I spilled cold brewing coffee and grounds all over the kitchen this morning. Does that mean that the room is now tuned to a higher frequency?
Anyway, I’m glad we have a shop vac. About a gallon of coffee and grounds, what a mess. I didn’t cry, I just sorta whimpered and cursed. I broke my glass coffee urn in the process……dammit.
I may be too clumsy to play violin…..??
Generally I believe the best stringed instrument for an adult beginner of "middle age" or beyond is the cello. It's the most ergonomic of the standard four. For a melodic "string band" instrument there is the mandolin, which is strung and fingered the same as the violin.
Paul, I’m not sure I could afford a cello, although it’s one of m faves. Finding a good teacher could be daunting as well. Storing in my small crowded office, hauling about I my Prius, could e tricky. I had to sit like a cellist for six weeks after my surgery. Not very lady like. But comfortable. (Not in a short skirt)
Will, you’re as funny as you are smart!
Actually, during the French Revolution, the French did change to 10 hour clocks, along with 10 day weeks. Neither lasted too long, but they did try.
submitted this day, 7eme Messidor
Will, I already own two violins. I bought a used student violin in November of ‘23. I won a free bench made violin from an amateur luthier in April of this year. I have a couple of grand or so invested in violin lessons.
However, should this not work out, I will look into the viol de gamba, as now, I know of two violin shops in the next county.
I do have a goal of playing the violin onstage a bit with my band next year, if I can manage it.
I did go to the Viol De Gamba Society site, read all about it, and heard the beautiful pieces they played. Thank you, I am much more enlightened.
My son took up violin/fiddle playing when he was 40, 20 years ago, and still looks awkward doing it - but he is a big guy (with big hands) and maybe that is part of the reason. He recently took over one of my old cellos and I think he finds that more natural. He has been an active musician since we heard him playing TAPS through his tricycle handle bars on our front lawn when he was about 4 years old. He went on to piano as a trumpet player through 4 years of high school band as a professional guitarist is in a band and recording engineer. It is tough for an adult to adapt to a chin instrument.
There is an alternative other than cello or viol. My older granddaughter now plays the Cretan Lyra, a 3-string violin-size instrument played in cello position with a violin bow. She picked it up while living on the Greek island of Crete on and off over a period of about 5 years. She had previously played violin, after studying it with her grandfather (me) for 10 years and got through the 10 books of the Suzuki Course (including the 2 Mozart concertos therein). The first time she lived on Crete she videoed a local group that included a Cretan violinist playing his violin in cello/lyra position-so I really got to see and hear it.
That is one way to fiddle, play it like a cello, fit it in your Prius and carry it with some comfort into your 90s. By the way, the Cretan Lyra fits in a violin case (I think - at least it looks like a violin case).
I suspect that if an orchestra transposed Beethoven's 5th symphony from C minor to Bb or D, 90 % of the non-musician audience would not notice the difference. Their emotional reactions would be the same. The real building blocks of music are Not the 12 notes, with assigned frequencies, but rather the intervals, the "spaces" between the notes.
Although I do not have absolute pitch, I found I could tune to 440 or 443 at will by remembering the subtly different timbres.
Four fine tuners facilitated the frequent switching.
BTW, I have no desire to tune to A-444. It is not useful in any of the activities I pursue on the viola.
Tom, many Bluegrass and country musicians play both mandolin and fiddle. I started out with both, in the 1970s. I only quit because they were stolen and I was too poor to replace them. Check Michael Cleveland, who plays both, very well. So did Johnny Gimble, of the Texas Playboys days.
Andrew, I started with violin in order to stave off Alzheimer’s disease. It was a familiar instrument to me, because I had tried to learn fiddle playing in Nashville Tennessee in the 1970s. Believe it or not, I have surpassed my playing level of those days! I certainly didn’t expect it to be easy, or to ever become really proficient at it. I don’t mind.
1) Reasonable intonation.
2) Reasonable sound.
3) Reasonable facility.
That seems really proficient relative to people who can’t play the violin.
Just keep things simple and efficient.
Cheers,
Buri
The ukulele is very popular stringed instrument. I’ve taught upwards of 300 kids and adults, as beginners, most who have never played a musical instrument in their lives. I can have them playing a song in less than an hour.
Can’t do that with any other instrument that I know of.
" It certainly doesn't affect the structural health of the instrument. There were a couple of European and Korean orchestras who tuned as high as 444...talk about bright sound!"
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What method did you use to establish that the higher tuning didn't affect the health of these instruments?
If your underpants were to tight, would you realize this yourself, or need someone else to tell you? ;-)
Depends. Where they tightened slowly over time, or very suddenly?
For me, 444 is just too high! I have relative pitch, but of late I really notice if the A is too high or low. I've settled around 441, which I know "these days" is a little low, but it feels civilized (but not overly civilized) to me.
I think this is a very reasonable question.
I don't have perfect pitch, and I'm not sure I can always answer yes to the above question.
However, comparing the two performances below, the former feels more familiar. Also, as I commented before, it gives the impression that someone is speaking.
https://youtu.be/z_4jMxbwmVc
https://youtu.be/QyQ-POuTNn8
On a related note, the standard pitch for Japanese gagaku is apparently 430 Hz.
Just curious - what's the thought behind orchestras tuning at 444? Why would that choice be made?
Advice to orchestra string players: If your volume seems to drop on a note or you can't hear yourself, you are probably in tune.
Some concerto soloists will also push the pitch up a little, for the same reasons.
There is a New-Age philosophy claiming that C528 (which will result if A is 444) has some kind of healing properties. There are similar claims for many other “special” frequencies.
For myself, I tune to a 440 tuning fork. If I find the A string low, I always tune it up to the fork. But if I find the string a bit high I usually leave it there. (I am talking in the neighborhood of maybe 442.)
Can a soloist’s pitch differ a bit from the orchestra and still be compatible? I read somewhere that Szerying said that he liked to tune a little high because “I want to be heard!”
My only specific memory at this point of my performance with orchestra of the Bruch no.1 some months back is that as soon as I began my first solo entrance I realized that my open G was flat! Great! The one note I couldn’t do anything about!
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