V.com weekend vote: When you shift, do you think in terms of positions?
When you shift, do you think in terms of numbered positions, like third, sixth, seventh positions? And if not, what do you think about when you shift?
For me, things feel pretty set and numerical up through fifth position. I like for my students to develop a good awareness of second and even half-position, as well.
Beyond fifth position, however - I feel a lot more comfortable if my ear can get involved. If I can hear the pitch, I can shift to it. That is probably true for something more common like third position as well, but I'll confess that I have less of that secure geography, way-high on the fingerboard. Also, in second and third positions, there is by now a lot of muscle memory that allows me to skip the conscious "what position" thought.
So I would say "sometimes," for me. When things are tricky, I get mathematical and think about the numerical position. When it's all flowing and familiar, I play by ear and muscle memory.
What are your thoughts about shifting, and how much do you think in terms of the numerical positions? What other things do you think about? Please participate in the vote, then share your thoughts in the comments.
Thank you to Susanna Klein for this idea for this week's vote! If you have an idea for the Weekend Vote, please e-mail Laurie!
You might also like:
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- Practicing Shifting by Speeding Up, Not Slowing Down
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Replies
As a beginning violinist I thought in positions, blocking the violin into sections as to where the various notes were. Eventually you shift so much that you have a bigger view of the fingerboard and don't need to break it into smaller sections. You just move from note to note as needed. This is how my teacher Percy Kault instructed me and has stuck with me and is how I approach it in teaching as well.
My brain seems to work as yours does, except that I lack the ear ability to hear pitch well up in the stratosphere (or “gerbil zone” as I’ve also seen it called). I tried for a while to make it better for myself by trying to consciously think in positions (6th, 7th, 8th, etc) to see if that would help, but it didn’t really help. Also if there are too many ledger lines I stop being able to recognize the note on sight (anything above the high A and I run into this problem). That also didn’t get better with scales and position work. All this played a significant role in my switching to viola as my primary instrument. Nothing on the viola ever goes out of the pitch range that I can hear accurately and comfortably, and the music may switch into treble clef, but it never goes out of the range I can recognize immediately on sight.
While positions can help, nothing can replace inner hearing. The desire for the pitch, and the distance as well. Never ever play without hearing it first
Karen's statements apply to me also, as a violist (my ability to hear well stops about two octaves above middle C). However, particularly when the viola switches to treble clef or there are a number of lines above the normal staff, I tend to think in terms of positions.
When figuring out fingerings I clearly think in positions, at least for positions 1 - 5. When I play however (even sightread) I think rather "I'll play this d with the first finger" than "third position". Apparently my first finger knows where the d is.
When I was a beginner, I thought in terms of "positions." But now I think in terms of intervals. Sometimes, once I find the fingering that works best, I may backtrack to determine the position I'm in. For the higher positions (7 and above) I rely on my ear.
I of course learned the positions when starting out. But as I gathered confidence I just went for the note with what I or someone else regarded as an appropriate finger without thinking about what position I was in or going to. To me this seems a natural progression, an evolution of one's ability to play the violin.
In learning any new skill whether music, sport, or otherwise, first comes crude attempts followed by refinement but both requiring conscious thought. As mastery is attained, conscious thought plays less and less a role and one just "does."
I just think in terms of the hand frame and what note my first finger plants on. The rest comes from the intervals hit by the other 3 fingers (which includes 2 intervals reached by the pinky). The strings being a fifth apart, it's easy to know where that first finger starts on any of the strings. This system will not always hold, because just yesterday my teacher suggested shifting up to hit the F on the A string with my 2nd finger (instead of 3rd) even as the first is ready at the A on the E string. An experimental fix for how I was always sharp if shifting up to land my 3rd finger on that F, even as the E string would all be right. So I guess my system for now is just know where your 1st finger is.
I voted "sometimes", which I think is the most accurate answer for me. This honestly isn't something I've consciously thought about for a long time. I'd say most of the time I'm probably thinking more in terms of note names and sounds and finding positions that way, but occasionally I might think "oh, this is best in 3rd position" sorta thing.
Most of the time I’m thinking of the note I7m aiming for. I think we get too bogged down with the standard route of position work for beginners. (1st, 3rd, bit of second and fourth etc) I do this to some extent but I have students playing one finger scales quite early on then combine this with finger patterns which are actually the central component of efficient left hand technique. If they can move up and down the string combined with finger patterns then they can play the Galamian two octave scale up to 5th position much earlier on than is usually considered normal.
Cheers,
Buri
I tend to think in terms of positions up to 4th position, but from 5th position onward I tend to think of my hand position mostly in terms of intervals from the octave above the string, rather than position numbers.
no I just do it. It is worth pointing out that guitars number positions by semitone so the octave is the 12th not the 7th. I think that this is a better way but have never been able to convince any violinist of that.
"Sometimes" for me as well, in terms of whether or not a particular passage might be best tackled "in half position, 2nd position" etc. But from that staring point, I'm thinking more in terms of which finger will play which note and not about the specific position any more.
When I am playing a piece that I already know, I shift by listening since I already know how it is supposed to sound. However, when I am sightreading, I think about which position I am in and which fingers I have to use for that particular position while shifting. I also do this while practicing three octave scales.
Sometimes. Mostly, though, I think in terms of pitches and intervals. I’m aware of which position I’m in, but this really stays at the back of my mind.
One question I’ve had from guitarists: “How do you know where the positions are?” The best answer I can offer: It’s a combination of pitch sense, fingerboard geography knowledge, and muscle memory. To echo a previous poster’s input: You have to hear, mentally, the pitch of the note in the new position before shifting. For both pitch sense and muscle memory, I find review of Sevcik Op. 8 drills most helpful.
I also find review of scales in one position useful. While piano key intervals are the same, no matter which octave, the stringed instrument fingerboard forces you to bring the fingers closer and closer together the higher you go.
Practically word for word what Karl said.
I've been taught to think of position, not as which fingers play which notes, but literally the physical position of the hand, not just on the fingerboard, but also position of the thumb and position of the palm, where it touches the wood of the violin in 3rd position upwards; where the elbow is. Then the fingers choose the notes. In this sense, position is always to be thought about, but not as a number. I've been taught not to bother with 4th position if 3rd will do, so in that sense I sometimes think about number. In the top octave of three-octave C and D scales, technically I'm in 9th position for both, but it's infinitely more important to attain hand comfort, elbow position, etc. In 9th I can just about keep the thumb in place on the heel. When I shift I listen for the right note and think about hitting it at the same time as achieving hand comfort. When working out fingering, I take account of position numbers, but after that there's no need. And of course you get the occasional legato run up or down where available fingers are what matters, and the position is unimportant.
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March 23, 2025 at 03:47 PM · Sometimes I prefer to think of shifting by interval distance, like a singer. My version of the position numbering system is by half-step: 1/2, 1, 2, 2 1/2, 3, 3 1/2, 4, etc. For instruments with a longer string length, like Cello or Guitar, that would be more obvious. The Guitarists number the frets 1,2,3,4 etc. but it is too late in history for us to switch to that system. Above about fifth position our position system starts to break down, and fingering on the second half of the E string gets really complicated, difficult, and personal.