Pythagorean intonation schema
Good day to you all.
I have been consulting this forum for quite some time now. Though, I never could finally decide to join it.
Well, here I am, at last!
I wish to ask you a question, for I am in a great dilemma. Allow me to write a few words so you get a portrait of what’s going on.
I always had a good sens of intonation and a perfect pitch, thus, I never truly played “out of tune”. But lately, becoming older and entering the “real life”, with god’s help, soon participating in grand competitions, I cannot allow myself to play well in tune, it must be, as my teacher, Vladimir Landsman would say, precise as a laser beam. I know perfection in such thing does not exist, but here is where I’m going:
How can I actually check intonation? I heard of a pythagorean intonation, and got quite interested in that subject. I could never find a precise, violin guide book using that system though.
Basicly, my question is: when playing, for instance, a d major 3 octave scale, what notes should I verify with open strings? Of course octaves, but what about sixth, fourth, should the e on d string be in tune with the a, or with the g open string, or sort of in between? Is there some sort of book or schema explaining what note should concord with another, in such tonality, including thirds, sixth, et cetera... Maybe do you know?
I tried a tuner but am finding it unhuman, plus, it does not take in consideration the tonality.
Please, help me, I can barely touch my fiddle now, knowing, or at least thinking, what I am doing is incorrect. I believe, fiddler fellows, you know that feeling!
Thank you for reading and replying!
Jean
Replies (15)
Hi Jean,
Welcome.
Have you visited www.violinmasterclass.com? It has a section on intonation systems, and as far as I can judge that is all one needs to know.
Good luck,
Bart
If you want pythagorean, you build from fourths and fifths. Find your first note, then find the fifth up from there, then build the second note from the perfect fourth down from it. From the second note, go across a perfect fifth and build a perfect fourth down from it. This will give you the third note of the scale. etc...
Hi Jean,
I don't really understand your problem.
Among numerous acoustic systems ,three systems are used depending the kind of music you want to play
1°) Tempered system: (pianist's scale) All intervals but octave are false.It allows modulations
2°) Pythagorean system violonist's scale): Octave,fifth and fourth are perfect.Majeur third is high and minor third very low.Useful for uncompannied melody .Large/broad thirds ,thanks to narrow semi-tone, provide dynamics to the melody . Because of the large thirds,chords are out of tune
3°) Zarlino 'system ( Physicist'scale or just intonation) same as Pythagorean but thirds are pure only in a given tonality.
It is useful in strings quartet for harmonic reasons but do not allow easy modulations and therefore need frequent adaptations.( You migth have confused both system when asking which notes to control in a scale)
If it sounds right, it is right.
If it sounds wrong, it is wrong.
No way to "check" it.
Just play. And listen. And play some more.
The Pythagorean Intonation can best be resolved with Tonic Sol-fa, which states that the squeal on Do equals the sum of the squeals on Fa and So.
Jim: thanks for that darling poem - never seen it before. And I may never walk again...
Alain: thanks for that terrific summary for those of us that somehow missed theory... :-\
So when playing with a piano do we play out of tune with ourselves or out of tune with the piano?
Maybe thats why I don't like it....
It's up to you to choose the right system.Anyway you are always in tune for someone and out of tune for someone else. JacquesThibault "added color" when other said he played out of tune.I must say Just intonation was tabou in the Belgian French school
Also the duration of a note, or a group of notes, affects the results. A double-stop that is off enough to have a beat frequency of 1 hz will go completely unnoticed as an eight note in 4/4 at 60...
Pianos are out of tune all the time--by definition. Guitars are sometimes out of tune, but can be played dead on tune in many circumstances.
In tune really is a function of:
A. Caring.
B. Listening.
C. Adjusting and practicing.
If you are with a piano, make it sound good. If it sounds bad when you clash, then I guess you answered your own question.
But see, the difference in finger position from 12TET and PT is teeny tiny. If you have learned your ABCs above, it will happen without even thinking about it. You'll simply play in tune with the sound around you.
Just play like a singer. Easier said than done ... and consider that I'm a rank n00b, so this advice is worth what you're paying for it.
My teacher once told something I think about literally every time I work on intonation. It's sort of a paraphrase of what Galamian (I think) said:
Can you play really in tune with your open strings? Great, but not enough.
Can you play really in tune with the piano? Great, but not enough.
Can you play really in tune with 4ths and 5ths? Great, but not enough.
So, they're all equally viable options and we have to be flexible enough to play with any kind of intonation.
Also, think about (say) an F#. In a G Major scale, we might put that F# a little high to lead to the G. In a double stop with open A, we'll play the same F# lower to make the stop ring. If we're playing a unison passage with piano, we might play that F# somewhere in between to match the piano. And if we're playing with a piano that's out of tune, we have to adjust even more. Not to mention if we have a slightly out of tune string.
So, basically we're never (or always!!!) in tune. When I'm practicing scales, I really like to play with a drone. Sometimes on the tonic, sometimes the dominant, and sometimes (if I'm feeling adventurous) on the mediant or submediant The Tuning CD has been extremely helpful for me, and I enthusiastically recommend it to any level player.
Another vote for the "Practice listening and adjusting" advice (vs.say, concentrating on Pythagorean scales). Since you need to play even-tempered with the piano, just intonation for harmonies, and Pythagorean in solo lines, on-the-fly perception and adjustment is the cardinal skill. Your ear knows. One might explicitly practice the difference in piano-partnered and solo scales, however.
I read (can't find the passage but will search more on request) that Heifetz would on occasion not allow his students to retune during lessons when needed. I did find the passage where Ayke Agus writes that he would occasionally require them to detune a string slightly and play! I suppose it requires you to exercise the adjustment skills you must always be practicing anyway.
On your 3-octave D scale, the goal would be to play the scale against a drone D and have all the intervals in all three octaves in tune with the drone.
"Heifetz would on occasion not allow his students to retune during lessons when needed" – that's very good practical training. If the student can cope with a out-of-tune string under the eyes and ears of the Master then he or she won't be panicking if the D-string goes a few cents flat during a performance of the Mendelssohn. Incidentally, are there actually any decent opportunities to retune during that concerto?
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October 27, 2010 at 03:06 AM ·
Keep in mind that the violin isn't a well-tempered instrument. I have so-called perfect pitch, but in playing this instrument, a strong sense of relative pitch is far more valuable.
Keep the tuning simple. I use an A-440 tuner and re-check my tuning against it at regular intervals throughout a practice session. About checking notes against open strings: I don't have any particular system of doing this, although I do it at times to double-check myself.
On double stops, you should be able to tell right away, "This sounds right" or "This doesn't sound right." Fix the note that's wrong. If you can determine fast what is wrong and how to adjust, so much the better. Keep listening and listening and listening ahead -- mentally, in slow practice -- for the next notes coming up. What should the pitches be?
In practicing basic shifts, I like to go through a long series of positions on each string -- several minutes on each one: I-III; III-V; I-V; V-VII; II-VI -- you get the idea. I find this a very good discipline for mentally listening ahead. I don't need to check an adjacent open string to be sure -- I can hear in my mind what the notes should be before I get to them. If a pitch isn't on target -- I'm human, too -- at least I know which direction to adjust it.
Yes -- and it brings back a verse I remember from childhood: