How important is a quality instrument for a child beginner?
My young daughter, who will be three next month, has just started Suzuki violin. She's using a rented instrument, but I'm thinking it may be more cost-effective and personally satisfying for her if she owned one. I'm willing and able to buy a good instrument, but I can also get some unknown (possibly piece of crap) thing off the Internet for much less.
How much does quality matter at this early stage? When she's just learning good posture and how to bow straight, I don't know if it's worth it to spend a lot of money. Other considerations:
- I'm estimating that she'll use the 1/32 for about a year.
- Her enthusiasm is great enough that I doubt she'll want to quit soon.
- Her little sister (9 months) may end up playing violin too and could use the instrument.
- I could trade it in when we're ready to buy a 1/16.
Any advice would be much appreciated!
Thanks,
Karin
Replies (24)
Hi Karen,
The smaller the violin, the harder it is to find ones with better tones. I think when you get down to the 1/32 and 1/16th sizes you basically just get what you get. However, when you switch to 1/4 and 1/2 sizes, I would definitely find something that sounded really good. Your daughters will learn what it means to have good tone alot better with a nice sounding instrument. I was fortunate to have a teacher that always picked out violins with wonderful tone for me. I just recently purchased my own full-size violin, a really nice one, and it was really fun/neat to go through and compare all of the tones. It's amazing how different they all are. But, I think having good-tone violins (although not expensive violins) growing up really helped me to tell the difference between them all. Also, remember that price doesn't guarantee good tone.
Anyway, it sounds like you have a good plan, although I would say that you may want to consider renting when you get to the bigger sizes since they grow so fast from 6-teens. A lot of violin shops have a rent-to-own policy where they take half of the rent you pay and put it towards any violin in their shop for you. That can be really nice...
So, there's my two cents! Hope they helped...
Adela
A good instrument is very important, but at this size you won't find any. As she moves up, though, you'll want to try to find nicer violins if you can. It CAN make a difference at 1/8, and it DOES make a difference at 1/4--that's a size where they start to sound like violins, and the quality is noticible.
More important than the sound, though, is the setup. Many childrens' violins are setup to very low standards and are hard to play, which will not help. I have a rental program, and for the very smallest violins we buy some from a pretty good manufacturer but they're not usable out of the box. (The larger sizes are all set up in our shop, and that's one of our claims to superiority--a totally professional-quality setup, regardless of size).
By the way, on the issue of exactly what a better violin does, when a cousin of mine was on 1/2 size and an uninspired student, I made him a violin, myself. He instantly turned from someone who wouldn't practice to someone who wouldn't stop. The tonal difference was huge, and it does make a big difference.
How do you like the one you're renting? Does the shop have any other that sounds better? I do think it's important for children to like the sound that they're making. My son can even tell the difference between two bows with his 1/16th outfit, and consistently picks the bow that sounds better. I recently moved him to a 1/8th I bought from Stringworks for 1/2 price [preowned], and the difference in sound is at least twice as good. It actually sounds like a violin and has some tone colors, unlike the 1/16th that sounded wheezy. Of course I replaced the strings with Dominants and there is a better feel than the steel strings that usually come on small violins.
Michael, lucky cousin you have. :-)
Thanks for the responses, everyone. I was actually expecting more people to tell me to get quality, but even my luthier said to get the cheapest thing I can find. Michael, thanks for your point about setup; I didn't know that it made such a difference.
Clare, to answer your question: the one she's renting now is okay, not great, but the biggest problem is that it's a 1/16 which is too big. I could rent a 1/32 from a different shop, but the monthly rental fee is significantly higher which made me rethink the rent vs. own debate.
I decided to get something off eBay that is quite cheap (supposedly the retail price is much higher). If it's really horrible, I'm only out about three months' rental. :)
Quality absolutely does matter, but in one specific area: setup. Even a lackluster instrument (tonally) that is set up properly can be played effectively enough to learn on.
When looking for an instrument, quality does matter. Here are some things to look for:
Ebony Fingerboard (not painted)
Hand-shaped body (this usually shows a bit of shaping on the body, rather than a fairly straight curve to the edges)
Ebony Purfling
Ebony or Rosewood Pegs
There are some rather nice instruments coming out of China, although they tend not to have a great resale value, at this point in time, it's not going to have that great a difference. But be careful, as the names can change quite often, so don't be confused if you buy one instrument, and then go to get the larger size, and the luthier or seller says it's exactly the same instrument, but in a different name.
Quality is hard to find in this size, but definitly get the best you can find. Also, real horse hair on a wood bow is a must.
I would strongly recommend that you NOT buy anything off of ebay. When my students have done this (without consulting me first) I have almost always found the quality unacceptable, and they end up having to get something else. Unless your teacher has told you to do so, don't do it!
I always have my students go to Potters (I live in the DC area), and they do very good work. I believe they have a catalogue. You might also try Johnsons in MA.
Karin, I spent way too much time looking at Ebay but did not buy anything from them. Yes, the price is cheap, and the time I spent (in hourly wages) outweighed the price of the instruments. But at the end, I took the violin from my son's teacher, which granted is not the best, but at least it gives off a sound. I replaced the rubber band-like strings and Suziki tuners/tailpiece with Prelude strings and Wittner integrated tuner tailpiece and the little 1/16th became playable and tuneable. I had to set the soundpost myself because when I was changing the tailpiece the post fell down. Rattle, rattle...
Hopefully you did get a good one from ebay, but if it comes with the bridge down and nothing attached, you'll have to string it, hope the soundpost doesn't fall, and do the setup (position the bridge, notch the bridge if it doesn't have any, check string length, afterlength). This setup work costs probably more than what you paid for the violin if you were to take it to a shop. Believe me, struggling with a 1/16th soundpost (when you've no experience other than reading posts on Maestronet), had me sweating for over an hour. Luckily I had a setter and had visualized in my mind what to do. Michael says that in an emergency you can use a sharpened coat hanger.
Fortunately children grow fast and my son only used the 1/16 for 3 months. Now he has his 1/8 from Stringworks and it is lovely. Being used it hardly had any scratches, and the finish and color (deep red-brown) are really nice, real purfling, and came fully setup ready to play. I put in Dominants and wittner tailpiece and the soundpost did not fall. I think my son has put in more dings and dents in the few days he had it than what was on it (and I got it 1/2 price because it was preowned/prerented). Must have been a girl who had it before. :-)
Like many people on this board, I agree with set-up being very important for small violins. My son plays 1/10 right now and his teacher noticed that strings were little too high off the fingerboard. I didn't even know that mattered. But small fingers are not very strong to press down the strings without collapsing their fingers if they are set up too high. I don't think you have to spend too much on a 1/16 or 1/32 because they grow so fast at that stage, but I suggest you look for one that is set up correctly and nicer sounding violin if you can. (Even the small kids notice the difference of better sounding violin.)
I don't think it'll matter where you get the violin -- I've had some good e-bay purchases, and a friend bought a great viola for super-cheap. Just look for reputable sellers, and use common sense. If something smells fishy, it probably is.
With a 1/32nd size, unless you happen upon a luthier's personal project violin, you'll be getting a factory instrument no matter where you buy. And as you say, at the worst you're only out three months' rent. ;)
Wherever and however you end up buying a violin -- or even renting a violin -- take it to a good luthier for a proper set-up as soon as you get it. Have him/her check the bridge and soundpost, look for cracks, etc; generally make sure the instrument is healthy and playable. The luthier can string it for you as well, if you're uncomfortable with the idea of re-stringing it.
Thanks, Patty. Yes, everyone has eBay story nightmares, but that doesn't automatically mean that everything from eBay is bad. It absolutely depends on the individual seller, and this one had excellent feedback. There was a photo of the instrument so I could at least tell that it had a bridge, fine tuners, etc., and I do have a luthier who can fix any serious problems.
Again, I wouldn't buy a full-size instrument without trying, but since the general consensus seems to be that quality is irrelevant and pretty hard to get on a 1/32 anyway, I think it was an okay decision.
I agree that the setup is most important, but make sure the instrument has good quality fittings. Some of the very small instruments have very cheap pegs/fingerboard/tailpiece. The instrument will be difficult to tune, the fine tuners will stop working, the student won't be able to learn to play on individual strings successfully. Many of the small Gliga's are pretty reliable on these points, although even their quality is up and down. Just remember that if you pay for a good one(and keep it in good condition), you can hand it down to your younger child,and still probably recoup almost the entire price of the instrument if you resell.
I think it's all been said here. I'd just like to add something to what Michael said about the instrument becoming important by 1/4 size and definitely by 1/2.
I started my youngest daughter on a 1/4 even though it was a bit big for her because it had a very good and projecting tone, one that actually bordered (but not quite there) on what I would call a true violinistic sound. Tone can very much interest a child as has been noted and I believe that if, instead, I'd bought her the 1/8 size violin she might have lost interest because she has been a quick learner.
Don't take this to mean that I promote putting a full-size into a child's hands at the first opportunity, as some unfortunately do, and then watch them slowly tilt over. But having a violin a little bigger than your size can help on many levels. Just ask violinists that also play viola.
She's had the 1/4 instrument for over 3 years now and is just about to switch to a 1/2, which will actually fit her like a glove. The transition for her will be painless and the difference she will notice will be significant. And here I should say that I've have heard a few 1/2's that put some full-sizes to shame, and I've heard some 3/4's that leave a whole lot of full-size violins in the dust.
Simply put, I believe there is a point where the violin factor ends and the toy factor begins, properly setup or not. Yes, setup on any size instrument is important, but there's only so much you can do when you go below a 1/4. All things being equal as far as a decent setup goes (though I myself try and get the most from a violin via setup), once you enter into the realm of the violinistic sound it will be the inherent poperties of the instrument that will be by far the most important thing.
What can you do then, when you want to give a 'violin' to a child needing a size less than 1/4? Well, that depends on how inventive you want to be. :-)
I am most intrigued by that casual comment that you should let a child play on a larger size if he can handle it !
My 5 years old plays beautifully on a 1/8 violin. The teacher said we need a 1/10 but the store give us a 1/8 and we did not pay much attention to the size. I loved the tone, the instrument’s overall quality and took it home.
Not even the teacher noticed that it was actually as large as a 1/8 when doing the posture setups and checks. She was intrigued by the big tone
and said that we should absolutely go back to a 1/10 because otherwise the child would struggle and get bad habits (like supporting violin’s weight with the hand as it is too heavy for her).
The posture was not perfect in the first 3 month, I agree, but the tone was great. It got better and better.
We tried to get a 1/10 at the same store (the closest good store is 1.5 hours away, closes at 5 and we both work full time) and again they gave us a 1/8, somewhat smaller. The teacher said it is narrower but still a 1/8 (and again, it struck her by the tone not by how my daughter’s hand was stretched). The child is totally happy with the violin and does not struggle. At least apparently (and to me).
We did what told though baught on e-bay a cheap instrument 1/10 , not too bad but it needs work
(lower bridge, better strings, lowered strings on the neck). It could add up to a lot of money
and time (don't know any luthiers close by)
If the child plays correctly and takes pleasure in the big tonality of the 1/8th, why pushing it like that?
Is the risk of bad habits real ?
I think it is, Rodica. My son moved to 1/2 size a little too early. His teacher asked him to wait but he just loved the tone of the bigger violin. Now his arm was not quite long enough to comfortably shift up and down so his waist started to turn and his bow started to stroke somewhat diagnally instead of straight. It took so much to correct these newly acquired bad habits. My son and I both were exhausted. If I can do it all over again, I would have him wait until he is physically ready to move up to the next size. It is true bigger violin sound better, but you don't want to hinder their technique especially if your child is shifting to the higer positions it will be so much harder on the violin that is too big. Besides, his teacher said it could even cause injuries in the long run. A little bit of your patience will pay off later. Kids grow so fast anyway. It won't be long.
In case anyone's interested in the conclusion to my quest...I received the 1/32 violin from eBay today and am quite pleased. It seems to be very well set up; the pegs and fine tuners are well installed so the instrument's easy to tune. At $60 with shipping for the outfit (2 bows plus a pretty nice case), including a really cute 4.5 inch mini violin that my daughter loves, I think it was a good deal. The sound quality is of course not great, but even my luthier told me to get the cheapest thing I could buy because I wouldn't get good tone no matter what I spent.
My daughter's not actually playing with the bow yet, but my teacher was pretty insistent that we get the right size. I agree that developing proper technique should be more important than getting better tone with a larger violin. There's plenty of time for that later, but bad habits stick around, as I know all too well. :(
When tone matters to the player then it is important. No one wants a poor sounding instrument at any age. The problem with less than 4/4 instruments is that it takes full size skill and time to make. And youth insturments are not well cared for like full size. So why would a good maker invest heart and soul and top quality materials is something that is going to be passed on like out grown shoes? You can perhaps find someone to build a premium child size for you. Expect full size price. I would charge extra.
That said, certainly some are better than others and setup helps a lot. The biggist constraint is that the volume of a child size is always smaller than what one wants for a nice A resonance in the cavity.
In 1/32, even the best-made instruments are going to sound, well, terrible. In fact, you have to get to a 1/8 size instrument before it will sound passable and even a very good 1/8 size instrument will not sound as good as an average 1/4 size instrument.
In the smaller sizes it is still important that the violin be properly made and correctly set up. It is not necessary to spend more than a few hundred dollars to achieve this. Whether to rent or purchase is an economic decision and you can probably do the math yourself.
Bear in mind that at the young ages children outgrow violins fairly rapidly. At her age she will be spending a great deal of time on playing posture, rhythm, and very basic left-hand technique. By the time she's paying close attention to the sound, she'll have outgrown the instrument.
in feb 06 Strings Mag'page 20 see an ad by Geoffery Ovington making child instruments. 518-854-3648 good luck
Further to my comments above. My daughter is now very much into her 1/2. I paid a premium for it because of the tone and I think it was worth it. Yes she now wants to take care of this instrument whereas with the 1/4 it wasn't that important.
Now with the 1/2 violin's tone she is quickly coming into her own use of vibrato. This was something she just couldn't adapt to on the smaller violin. As do many children with smaller instruments they choke them and this stifles any attempt at vibrato.
Something else I did that worked for straightening out her crooked bowing was to put a device across and above the strings at the end of the fingerboard. This helped her use her bow arm via the wrist for frog and tip changes on the 1/4 she started on which was a 'little' big for her. There are many other things that can be done to help a child adapt at the earliest time. Again being 'inventive' can really help.
My experience with children left to smaller instruments too long for a reason such as 'they grow up so fast anyway' is that these are the children that loose interest the quickest. The only thing faster that a child's growth is the speed at which they become fussy and more critical about their environment. I'm just glad that she is now taking much more pride in her abilities to produce sound that makes heads turn (nicely).
Rick, I am glad it worked out for your daughter and I too wanted a better quality violin for my son when he was moving up to 1/2 size. But I wish I had listened to his teacher who had been playing for over 40 years. She knew extactly what would happen. There are so many things that can hinder rather than benefit from playing a violin that is too big for you. You could still invest in a better quality violin for your child but may be let a child work towards that as a reward for working so hard. For me and you it is the thing of the past. Your daughter and my son already moved to the next size. But for other parents, I just wanted to share my experience and what the teachers recommend which is to wait until the child is big enough to move up. It is better to play in a smaller size than a violin that is too big. Aske your teacher.
Hi Jiji. I think you've misread me. I'd research the topic as well as ask the teacher.
I totally disagree with the "buy anything" mentality. The person that will benefit most from a slightly better instrument is you! You will have to listen to and tune a dreadful instrument if that is what you purchase. As an orchestra teacher, I am very sad for parents who throw away their money on Ebay junk. The instrument shaped objects don't stay in tune. They are truly junk. You will be very thankful for having found a rental or a used purchase with a better sound that will stay in tune. All the squeaks and squaks of a beginner will be much more tolerable on a better sounding instrument. You certainly don't have to purchase at this age. The rent to own plans will end up costing you so much more in the end. Either buy one from someone else that is moving up in size or rent. Some rentals have a nice sound. It is untrue that all 1/32 sized instruments sound awful. Not many sound really good, but you might be able to find one that sounds less "little" and like a toy. I played several 1/16 instruments before settling on the one my daughter was in for two years. Thank goodness I did. I purchased the instrument. I hope that she has a child that will play that same instrument some day. My parents never kept my first violin, and I wish that they had, so that I could have my daughter play it. She has gone on to a 1/4 now. I am looking for another 1/4. The instrument she has annoys me. It is well set-up, but is very narrow and buzzy. It has good strings already, so I am just going to look for a better instrument. She is old enough now to be able to notice the quality of the sound. It will definitely help her to have an instrument whose sound doesn't fight against her.
Good luck!
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December 14, 2005 at 01:16 AM · My opinion:
At this point, a cardbord box would almost work! :-)
Seriously though, quality isn't going to matter to her. And I really don't think there is going to be a huge range of quality in 1/32 sized instruments. If you're going to buy one, just get something that looks nice so that she'll be attracted to it.
A three year old will pick up a shiney penny before they'll pick up a $100 bill.
Preston