Child prodigy or second language
I have read recently about the Suzuki method making "child prodigy" a more normal thing. I guess I mean, more common. Taking the apparently extreme situation of very young violinists and making it more like they are learning a second language. Is it true? Would I be pushing a child too much if I tried to get her to learn at age 2? All the instructors I found start at age 5 or so (probably easier to manage at that age...)
For instance, "Lara (St. John) began playing the violin when she was 2 years old. She first soloed with orchestra at age 5..."
If the Suzuki method is not stressful to her, provides another avenue for me to interact with her away from the TV, and provides my little girl a head start, is it wrong to head in that direction? I want to be a good parent, not a overbearing one.
By the way, she seems very musically inclined. She has loved music from the start, dancing at commercials on tv, plays (bangs on) a little piano her grandma got for her, sings into a mic her mom got for her, etc.
Replies (32)
Ah, so I see you've already considered my suggestion from the other thread, Brian! ;)
I can't teach a two-year-old. I'm not experienced with early childhood education. There are teachers who can, though.
A two year old is most definitly ready to learn, and is already doing so at a rapid pace. They are virtual sponges for new information. At this age, we don't always see all of the growth that is happening, but it is happening nevertheless.
I have taught two year olds in the past, but I almost always prefer to wait until they are three or older. My experience is that children younger then three usually don't understand the concept of following requests. This is the main reason why it is best to wait a little while to start lessons formally. I have had two year olds that have observed for a year or more. When they finally start, their first lesson isn't really their first lesson, because they have already taken in so much during the observation period!
Until that time, play lots of fine music (recordings) at home. Get the Suzuki Book 1 CD and listen to that as well. Sing all the time. Start researching Suzuki programs in your area.
Most importantly, it is essential that the desire to play the violin come from your child. We want the child to be the one to not only ask, but BEG to play. Take her to concerts, listen to music, observe Suzuki classes, but don't pressure her. Whenever she is doing something musical, make sure she is having a great time. If she expresses interest in starting violin, be encouraging, but noncommital. Ideally, this will make her want it even more. I love the idea of the child saying "Please, can I play?" and the parent saying "Well, I don't know...you'll have to practice every day..." In my experience, the children that observe the longest are the ones that are the most successful, because they really feel that it is an honor to play the violin and they WANT it the most.
Good luck to you!
Acutally, Emily, I read your comment on the other thread after I posted this one. You are a bright one... : ) I guess, what do they say, great minds think alike.
I did talk to the wife again, and she was less sarcastic this time about me, but she sure laughed at me about having our daughter give it a go.
Baby steps. No pun intended
If your wife is anything like me, she would say "no" to just about anything before considering it. I don't know, sometimes there's a good reason to say no. If not, then perhaps she can be convinced to think rationally and be more open-minded.
For a small child to have productive violin lessons, they have to really want it themselves (as was already mentioned). Otherwise, it would be a waste of money, unless of course, you were using your child as a front for your own lessons. :)
Well, I have a 20 month old son. My biggest fear, even before his birth, was somehow, someway, doing something that turns him against the violin or music.
So, I promised myself I would never, ever, push the violin on him in any way. My only wish is that he fall in love with music.
Anyway, one day, when he was about 4-5 months old or so, I showed him the violin (of course, congruent with my only wish, I had been playing music for him even in the womb). He loved it. He started pointing to various parts of the fiddle, waiting for a response from me, and then pointing again. Consequently, he has memorized every part of the violin--f-holes, scroll, etc., even though he can't even talk yet! I simply ask him, for example, "Leo, where's the scroll?" and he points to the scroll.
Also, while playing for him, he has taken the bow from me and moved it over the strings. It's really wierd, almost like he's played in a past life or something.
Ok, ok. I'm bragging.
Also, just like Miriam said, I only let him look at the violin for a very short time. He gets mildly upset when I take it away from him. Good.
So I don't care if he plays or not, even though that would be nice. What I do care about is that he appreciate great music.
He's seen videos of violinists and orchestras. He loves it.
Not bad for 20 months.
A "head start" on what? Just curious. Also, I noticed that you just now started violin yourself. Having been around (only a little bit in a distant past life) as a violin player, I can tell you that violin teachers and players, and the whole violin world, at least at the amateur level, is some of strangest most insecure stuff I've ever seen. I really wonder sometimes how much music is actually there, comparatively (ok, present company excluded:)). Sometimes it looks like another kind of dog show, comparing this little dog to that one, and I don't know if it's avoidable. I think it's built into classical music. It's mainly parent-driven with some kinds of teachers catering to it. From The Top was on the radio this morning and there was a 9 year old girl playing classical guitar. She was great, and really making music you wanted to hear. She played Giuliani, then she played Star Spangled Banner behind her head and the host was making lighter fluid jokes. She reads music, but she learns her songs (she called them that) from listening to CDs, then her teacher helps her fix it. Then a violinist came on who's a freshman at Harvard. She was playing a standard piece with next to no fluidity and so out of tune half the time it wasn't the right notes. Who's making music, and which one would you want around your house? Ask yourself honestly what your real goal is. Then, will the plan work. I had a violin scholarship, would rather have had a guitar scholarship, but there was no such thing. There probably is now, and guitar players aren't classical pariahs. Segovia didn't do it; it took the emphasis on guitar of the 60s, and the fact that half the kids of the subsequent generation knew some guitar. There's a connection to American life and culture. If you were living in early 20th cent. Russia, I might say force violin on her because it's a good way to get out of Russia, which is what happened with all that, I think :)
If it was me I would just concentrate on learning to be the best father until she was at least 5 or 6. That's the best way to give a child every opportunity, probably. Go see girls playing violin recitals. Go see girls playing guitar and singing at coffee houses. Talk to them all. Try to get information on the internet. I don't think you're doing anything wrong.
Jim wrote: "I can tell you that violin teachers and players, and the whole violin world, at least at the amateur level, is some of strangest most insecure stuff I've ever seen."
Truer words were never spoken. It gets real old. Seriously.
I agree with what others say regarding taking her to concerts and listening to music, but I would worry that the lessons themselves at so young an age (and the struggles to practice and make progress) could lead her to believe she must play violin to please you. When she is old enough to ask for it herself, knowing full well what she is asking for, that would be different.
One thing I already appreciate on this board is the blunt honesty. Seriously, I do.
One thing I don't appreciate is my inability to be complete and thorough in my writing, never have been...
By "head start" I guess I mean, if she can, then let her, expose her, don't keep from her. I don't have visions of her being in the symphony some day, I simply want her to try things when she can.
I guess what might help show where I am coming from regarding the "head start" is: I was completely ignoant of anything related to child development before having a child. I guess that's a man thing.
So, if she is 6, and I learn that they now have a method to teach children math that lets them tackle math at a later age, then I would like to give her a "head start" and let her learn that method. Make sense?
My father sent me to golf lessons when I was 9. I never even cared about golf but went. Now, I rarely play but when I do, I am as good as anyone else because I had the fundamentals taught at a young age, and, as a result, I enjoy it more. So, I guess I was thinking she is too young to know if she likes it, but, if I give her fundamentals at the right time, when she decided she liked it, she would have a "head start"
yip-yip-yip Aaarf, yip-yip-yip Aaarf...alluding to the dog and pony show aspect...
I think Merriam's suggestion regarding having the child listen to the Cds is a great idea at this age. One thing it would be interesting to mention is that even Dr. Suzuki does not promote training kids to become prodigies or even professional violinists (mentioned several times in the book Nurtured by Love). Rather, he saw violin and music as a way to become a more well-rounded person and to learn skills (discipline, patience) that will help the child become a more successful human being. Also interesting to note that I believe there is much discussion now between the success of Japanese Suzuki students vs. that of American. From what I understand, the Japanese culture is often more accommodating to spending 3-4 hours practicing at a very young age than the American culture (I do not know this from personal experience however). Would like to note that I am NOT a Suzuki teacher but studied under the method and have four children who study.
"One thing it would be interesting to mention is that even Dr. Suzuki does not promote training kids to become prodigies or even professional violinists (mentioned several times in the book Nurtured by Love). Rather, he saw violin and music as a way to become a more well-rounded person and to learn skills (discipline, patience) that will help the child become a more successful human being."
Rick, that is right on the money! Dr. Suzuki wanted to create fine human beings with noble character, not prodigies. It is great that the Suzuki method produces so many fantastic players, but that was not his primary intention, nor should it be ours. The first time the press heard about what he was accomplishing, they used phrases like "little geniuses" and "prodigy". I believe that he was very disappointed with those articles, as they really missed the essence of what he was trying to do.
Anyone interested in starting their child in the Suzuki method should definitly read Nurtured By Love. It is a very inspiring read.
Personally I fail to see how one method or another can make 'prodigy a more normal thing'. There are prodigies and there are the rest of us. Working hard to achieve a level of excellence is not the same as being born with the amount of talent it takes other people years of hard work to achieve.
On somewhat of a tangent - what serious study can be accomplished with kids so young? I am not a teacher so I have to wonder if before age 5 or 6 there is anything meaningful happening beyond teaching the child how to hold the instrument and gain some base level of comfort with it. Setting aside true prodigies I mean.
In my experience, the concept of "lesson" is at odds with the development of a 2-year old. I've had two 2-year olds.
Both of my children enjoy music, but in different ways. My oldest showed musical interest and aptitude at a young age. So we just put stuff in front of him to enjoy, and took him to a really nice early childhood music "class" with Margo Forbes. Not a "class" like when you are older. It s a parent-with -child affair with singing songs, playing with percussion instruments.
Out of the piles of little instruments we had at home, my son evolved in his interests, from drumming, to playing concertina and harmonica, to guitar, to ocarina and then to violin and ukulele, with lots of stuff mixed in.
One thing that I have noticed which is important---interest naturally waxes and wanes. And so a musical instrument that got daily attention for 6 months straight, will at some point find its way to teh bottm of the closet. The transition can be quite sudden, too. And as you can see from my little story, there are potentially many changes.
I would bear this last point in mind with respect to early childhood violin lessons--or any instrument lessons for that matter. Keep your own musical instrument preferences and understand that they are your preferences, not your childs and that eveloution is occurring!
I don't know if any of you saw "Andrea Rieu" concert on PBS. There was a child who just turned 3. He was about to be potty trained. Although his playing was not totally in tune, he managed to play some concerto in G. (I forgot the composer's name) He was amazing! Andrea said he met him when the boy was 2. This little boy even tried to do vibrato, too! I guess it really depends on a child if he really is capable of practicing at a young age.
Suzuki method is a great way to introduce children to violin. At the same time like other people on this thread said it is not intended to produce protegies per say. Coming from Japan, I think cultural difference is obvious. Most of Japanese mothers stay home and really devote their time in the children's education and up bringing although things are changing there, too. That allowed them to follow Dr. Suzuki's mother tongue approach consistently. I know it is so hard for working parents to follow this cause I've been there. Also, like my American husband, he thinks two hours of daily practice for my oldest son is too much which I think my son is capable of. I talked to my sister in Japan and her reply is "If you want to be a decent violinist you can do 3-4 hours. All the advanced children are doing it here." Oh, well. But going back to the original question, if you want to start your child with Suzuki method, you can take her to observe the class without committing to a lesson. Most of the Suzuki teachers will allow this. You keep taking her until she shows interest in violin. Then first you take a lesson with a teacher with a child size violin and wait for the moment for your daughter to take the violin from your hand. It might take awhile or it might be an instant love. But you'll never know until you try it.
I don't think it can hurt to wait a few more years to start. If someone starts at 7 they still have a great chance at becoming a professional. I would wait until the student can say the entire alphabet before starting, and is potty trained.
Hi Brian,
I'm facing a very similar question with my daughter, who will be three in January. I never planned for her to start an instrument this early, but since I started playing seriously again six months ago, she's shown such a tremendous interest in the violin that I think it would be doing her a disservice not to let her start. She has the verbal and cognitive skills of a much older child---I'm not trying to brag, just explaining that some children can comprehend things and follow directions at a much earlier age than others---and can really talk about music in an intelligent way. She knows the names of all the strings and most of the parts of the violin, will say things like "Want to put my hand on the violin so I can feel the vibrates!" and "You don't touch the bow hair."
So, I've decided to start interviewing Suzuki teachers. Some don't take kids that young, and I'll be very cautious to make sure the ones that do would be a good match for her, but I really feel like this is something she wants to do and not something we're pushing on her. I'll let you know how it goes.
Good luck,
Karin
I am always curious: for every Lara St. John out there, how many began-violin-at-age-two children are there who
1) are mediocre players.
2) wish they played trumpet or drums (--or any other instrument of their own choosing).
3) wish they'd played more catch when they were young.
4) quit.
5) end up hating violin.
6) end up hating their parents.
7) end up on drugs (~Michael Rabin)
I only know one kid who started that early, and he was an impressive cellist at a young age. I always envied him. But he flaked out in high school and never did much after he moved out on his own. I don't think he plays any more.
Jane's question can be generalised even further--what percentage of children who learn *any* instrument continue to play it as adults?
Bill, let's say, everybody who wasn't pushed to play an instrument, probably still plays either as an amateur, either as a professional and if someone ever quited playing, it must have been with pain in the heart. I cannot imagine ever quiting. I started at the age of six, which I think is not bad. My parents took me to an open day in the music school and although my mother would have liked me to play the flute ('because it's easier') I decided to start the violin, but I was very disappointed, when I found myself only being able to produce a scratching, flat, cold sound. Also, I studied with the 'Louis Metz'-method, which means I got to play a lot of boring exercises and it's good my mother helped me going through that nasty stuff. Later on, when I became more 'serious', she was afraid it would be the wrong choice to go to conservatory and to make my profession of it, so she always warned me about the negative sides of the music world, hoping that I would keep it as my hobby, hoping that I would keep getting good results at highschool and hoping I would go to university. I'm now in conservatory and no one can say I have ever been pushed into it, on the contrary. It's good it has been a real choice.
Jiji, hope you consider Andre Rieu not as a serious violinist!
Hi Sarah,
I wasn't pushed, but I stopped playing violin for 20 years. Lots of my childhood friends, relatives, children I babysat, played in the school band or orchestra, had their own garage bands etc, (were not pushed) but they no longer play. It seems to me that music is overwhelmingly a spectator sport in my american world...
Many schools over the years have dropped music, as well as art; rarely are sports cut entirely but are trimmed. The thought is always that it is "non-essential" or a "luxury" or "specialty". In other words, something you buy off a shelf rather than live with as an integral part of life.
So different from not so long ago! Lewis and Clark lead the "Corps of Discovery" up the Missouri and over the rockies to the Pacific and back, 1804-1806, one of the "French" members of the team, private Cruzatte, brought his fiddle with him--and both the corps and the natives they befriended along the way loved to dance and sing--and the fiddle was a key part of it. That seems to me an example of music as "essential" if I ever heard one!
Here is my criteria for accepting a beginner:
1. They are at least three years old and potty trained.
2. They have been observing for at least several months.
3. They have expressed interest in beginning lessons (several times.)
4. During observations, they are able to sit quietly and appear excited and interested.
5. The parent has read Nurtured By Love as well as my own studio policies and understands the philosophy and what will be required of them.
There is nothing wrong with starting a child at 7 or older. I have started children at that age and they do beautifully. But if the child is asking to play and meets the above criteria when they are younger, then I believe that it would be doing them a disservice to wait. As far as brain development goes, it is a major advantage to start young if they are indeed ready to do so.
As for waiting for them to sing the ABC song before they can start, it has not been my experience that verbal skills are a prerequisite of readiness for lessons. The part of the brain that learns verbal skills is separate from the part that learns music. This is why you sometimes see autistic children that can not speak at all, but can play an instrument at a high level. I've taught young children that will only say a few words, but take everything in and do exactly what I'm asking them to do with great joy.
(Incidentally, you might ask how a child who doesn't speak a lot can ask to start lessons? Two words: "I want!" or "Can I?" Also, if they are using their silverware as a pretend violin, that is a pretty good indication! :)
I started when I was 5 and my sister started when she was 2. It is very low-stress for the kid if they are doing Suzuki. For the first 3 lessons, all they did was draw her a foot chart! She was shy, so it took a while for her to build enough trust for my teacher to trace her feet. 15 minute lessons aren't bad and you are not supposed to force them to practice. My sister is now 4 and she practices every day...without being asked.
It also depends how you feel about her. Do you think she is ready for this?
Hope this helps.
Ha. Private Cruzatte accidently shot Lewis.
I just started at 15 year old. As much as I love kids, this is so easy! I rarely have to repeat anything, she gets it on the first try, and I don't have to plan every second of the lesson out. It's great.
There does seem to be a disparity of opinions on this site over when one should begin violin...Catherine, you just pointed that out by mentioning your 15 year old student in contrast to a previous message saying it best to start before 7.
I think what people are at odds over is their own projection of what they think the student will become.
There is a push to create the youngest, most talented violnist yet...accompanied by the opposite view of an adult taking up music because it had been a life-long dream.
IN the first instance, we are racing to create a prodigy and get them into a symphony or solo career by age 24. The latter is a person using music for their own life-enrichment. I think where the two opinions are divided emphasizes the rift between music for professionals and music for amateurs.
In a perfect world there would be no rift because music is music but somehow it is worth more for a 9 year old to play Lalo than a 47 year old. Why do we do this to ourselves? It is like we are making an elitist club out of music rather than letting it be ok for anyone to play violin.
INcidentally, I do not think there is much difference over when you learn violin. The only real advantage a child has over an adult learner is they have extra time to practice since they do not have to be concerned with paying bills and doing laundry. I had already stated once on another thread that the reason age 7 and younger keeps popping up is there was some research done that said kids who started young had benefit of increased mental speed and enhanced spatial temporal processing abilities. But this reasarch does not anyplace prove it makes them better violinists.
Well the 15 year old has a significantly reduced chance at becoming a professional, but it is easier to teach her. Kids are so hard, but they have the chance at becoming really good.
Sarah V, no, I don't think Andrea Rieu as a serious violinist:) I think he is more of an entertainer, but it was better than watching other soap operas. And to the other Sarah, Dr. Suzuki started to learn violin seriously at around age 17, I think. He said in his book although he could play decently his pinkie never got flexible and strong as those of students who started to play as young children. I'm not a researcher, but I used to be a ballerina. You know you have to open your toes 180 degrees for the first position. People who started young can do this, but not the late beginner. Of course there's always exceptions. So at certain degree, there is a benefit and difference starting early, but how early? That would depend on indivisuals.
The reasearch on the brain and early childhood development shows that around age six, the brain becomes more "permanant." This is why very young children can learn to speak several languages fluently if they are exposed to them at an early age. Since music in itself is a language, we can reach the same conclusion as to why young children pick it up so quickly.
I actually find it much harder to teach adult beginners because they tend to be very much in their left brain, meaning they are learning primarily by analytical and verbal tools. It is also much more difficult to get rid of tension. Children generally tend to be in their right brain (especially young ones). For example, a right brained approach to teaching intonation would be to ask a student to sing a note in order to play it in tune, and not telling them if it is too high or low. A left brained approach would be to give an instruction to lower the finger. Another example would be, say, Lightly Row. In the third line, students tend to have trouble knowing how many b's there are. A right brained instruction would be to have them sing and stomp on the last note, or to rub it on their arm. A left brained instruction would be to have them count the notes (there are five).
Let me emphasize that these are generalizations. I have known adults that are very right brained. I also have several good friends that started when they were teenagers, and are phenomenal players. And when I say it is hard to teach adult beginners, I don't at all mean it shouldn't be done. I didn't go into teaching because I thought it would be easy!
It is certainly important to utilize both sides of the brain in teaching. But my experience has been that society tends to value the more left brained style of learning, particularly in school. The longer someone has been in school, the more accustomed they are to left brain instructions. I really believe that being stuck in the left brain inhibits music making. The great thing about starting a child before they start school is that you get to be the first one (besides their parents) to mold their learning expectations.
A great book to read is Drawing On The Right Side of the Brain. It's actually about art and the right brain, but it is completely relevant to music as well. Sorry, I can't remember the author right now.
Hi Mariam,
Nice post. foreign language instruction has been such a waste of time in most cases for exactly what you point out--how is anyone going to actually earn to speak and write a language, if they are trying to learn tables of declensions!
I hadn't thought of music instruction tending that way, but I see what you mean--the finger position adjustment that you mention is a good example.
Uh, oh, fingerboard tapes come to mind :-\
Bill,
Finger tapes are mostly for the parents, not the child...and I take them off by Perpetual Motion. :)
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November 13, 2005 at 08:27 PM · Just remember that the 2-year old is very, very different from the 5 or 4 year old, or even the 3 year old in neurological and perceptual-motor development. A lot of neurological connections and skills haven't come in yet, unless the child has an unusually precocious development at 2. Don't expect a lot for a while. But at the same time, if you have a child that age who shows an interest and skills, you don't want to inhibit that or make any mistakes in fostering that kind of talent. Getting the child ready to play, fostering his or her ear for music, and making the most of his or her early interest? Sure. But you might want to contact a local university and talk with an educational psychologist who specializes in early childhood development. You might very well get some real good expert advice.