Regraduate the violin?

May 30, 2013 at 04:36 PM · From what I heard is, regraduating mostly has the potential to make you violin sound "better" at the cost of shorting its life span. Also, like all things violin, results and potential damage very and depend on each individual violin. If the wood isnt that dense there is more chance to damage it. I hope im not fanning any potential flame war on violin construction with my limited understanding!

From what I remember about your special case violin, im not to sure about what would happen to it. I doubt it would be caused by the wood being too thick and I really have to recommend trading it in. I know I would be very reluctant to trade in my violin for something different but then again it doesnt have any performance issues other than my own performance! :D

Its hard to imagine playing a violin during the entire season where your fighting against it. It would drive me insane! I guess its up to you wither its better to live with it until you feel the need to upgrade or talk to the maker about a possible trade in and hopefully be happy playing a new one all year long. unfortunately seems like your violin is a money pit and taking it to different luthiers never seems solve the problem and remedy it.

Good luck and I hope you find a way to play happily year round!

May 30, 2013 at 04:58 PM · Hi Sarah,

I understand the feeling. I had a problem violin at one point, so I understand how you feel!

Some ideas... It is hard to predict the end result of regraduation. Unless the violin is really thick or the graduations were done incorrectly in the beginning, it may not be the best long term solution although it could be in the short term.

Have you tried changing the soundpost, or bridge and getting the soundpost adjusted? A soundpost that does not fit well will definitely cause problems of clarity and response.

That said, about pressure and response. Many violin respond with less pressure and more speed of the bow. It is important not to choke the sound. Instead of lighter strings also, you could try a heavy gauge, or a medium gauge with a heavy gauge E string like a Jargar forte. Sometimes, some violins need more string tension to respond rather than the opposite.

Cheers and best of luck!

May 30, 2013 at 05:59 PM · Sarah,

I am sorry that this is still an on-going issue for you.

Re-graduating the plates is a tricky business and I would be very reluctant to get it done on any instrument worth more than $1,000 or even not that expensive.

If your violin maker suggested this, to me it appears as an admission that there is something wrong with the result of his own work. The fact that he is willing to replace your violin with a new one tells me of his high integrity and honest business practice. This is rare to find these days.

If I were you, I would borrow a solid instrument that I could use for time being, try to sell this one for as much as I could and wait for a new instrument from his shop for swap / trade in.

Seems like you do have a solution.

May 30, 2013 at 06:13 PM · It sounds like the maker has kind of been stabbing in the dark at coming up with a solution so far. Regraduating the violin might very well just be more of the same.

If you have the chance to swap it for one which you have played first to verify that you like it, that sounds like the best path to me.

May 30, 2013 at 08:30 PM · I have had a modern instrument regraduated with no success. Much of the discussion hinges on who is doing the regraduation. In my case, I think it was done too conservatively. But it is hard to tell--perhaps was something about the basic design of the fiddle--arching, pattern, wood choice, etc. It's tricky to ask the original maker to regraduate. As someone once pointed out, suggesting to a maker that the graduations are incorrect is like telling your wife or girlfriend they're fat.

You might want to ask another luthier to take measurement and see it it's very thick. Even if you want someone to regraduate it, it can be difficult to find someone who will agree to regraduate the work of another living maker.

May 30, 2013 at 08:43 PM · Scott, from my perspective as a full-time pro maker, I'll largely agree with what you've said.

May 30, 2013 at 09:48 PM · Sarah, I know there was some discussion in your previous thread about the technique of playing it - so what happens if someone else (better, not saying that harshly or offensively, but like your teacher or something), was to play this one, not just once off, but to take it home and have it for a month and try to play it in, in their own environment?) just to see if it is about the humidity / lack of / bow technique / attack etc.

In the meantime you do a trial with a more reliable alternative, which is not necessarily your dream, just to get over this hump of a battle with the instrument.

Regraduating is sounding like such an uncertain business. You need to know if there is a need to regraduate.

June 1, 2013 at 02:27 AM · Before irreversibly modifying the instrument, I would take it to another luthier or three to have them investigate the problem without permanently changing the instrument in the process.

Although you mentioned re-hairing the bow, I wonder if you tried simply changing to another used bow which is in good condition and some other rosin, with fresh strings. Why would you re-hair first and then perhaps re-try the same rosin without just trying some other bows? If other bows didn't solve the problem, then re-hairing the bow wouldn't, but you wouldn't have had to spend money and alter the bow to find that out. Rehairing the bow is of course fine and not a problem in itself, but hearing that that was part of the diagnosis suggests to me that the diagnosis was not done properly.

The fact that you mentioned that the bow doesn't grip at times leads to thinking that the problem is not in the body as such, but rather between the string and the bow, with perhaps the possibility that something is making the string unstable.

Even a mute electric violin, with no soundpost, no body to regraduate, etc., is able to give you a clear tone and good grip on the bow, sometimes despite terrible resonance in the solid frame, provided that the bow and strings are fine.

I'm not a luthier, and am just guessing based on what you've written, but perhaps another luthier who can access the instrument can solve the problem for you.

June 1, 2013 at 05:18 AM · Regraduating, meaning selective thinning, will generally shift the tone to a deeper sound and increase the strength of the body resonances in the process. I think that is exactly the wrong direction to solve this problem. From the emailed recordings, it seems clear to me that the instrument resonances are quite strong, and Sarah's very delicate bow attack does not have enough power to get it going.

That is about all I could gather from the recording, that the problem is a mismatch between the instrument's character and the player's style. My recommendation would be to find a violin that works with the player, rather than removing wood and hoping that this one will magically become more manageable. It probably won't.

I don't want to imply that there is anything "wrong" with the violin... it just needs to find its true soulmate. Of course, you should visit other reputable luthiers and get their opinions, and also find other good violinists to see what they think.

June 1, 2013 at 09:58 AM · Thanks!

I'm also beginning to believe that it's a missmatch. But now i'm rather horrified because i switched to my other violin that i haven't played much in 2 years.. I put some old strings on it that i had used on my "problem violin" and it played fine att first.. But after a while i started getting the same reaction from this violin!! What if i'm such a bad violinist that i even make everything i touch unplayable! :.( Maybe i need another bow. I don't know what's wrong, but i won't let the maker do any changes to the violin.. It's a fine instrument and deserves to be left alone and find the right player. But now i'm afraid that i will never be able to play any violin. :(

June 1, 2013 at 12:18 PM · Sarah, you've made progress by reproducing the problem, and as the things you've done are not permanent, it should be reversible. Reconsider the string-bow contact, including the rosin, humidity, and moisture or contaminants getting on the strings or the bow over time. The weather now may be fairly humid even when you are, so you might want to back off any additional humidification you've been doing.

June 1, 2013 at 12:22 PM · Hi,

Sarah, I agree with what the last few posters have said. This seems to indicate a problem with the bow, either that the hair is too old, that there is too much rosin, or the bow itself.

The only thing it can indicate as a player could be that you are using too much bow pressure rather than speed. Using too much pressure can choke the sound of the instrument. This is easy and quick to fix: release the fingers on the bow by releasing the thumb pressure and don't press the fingers into the bow. Instead feel your arm provides the weight, not the pressure of the fingers in the bow. Use more speed of bow by using more bow (i.e. your forearm needs to be more active). Remember that the sound is produced by a lateral motion of the arm. So, try to keep your elbow on the same level throughout the stroke. This keeps the string vibrating in the same direction and increases the resonance, especially if you don't press.

Cheers!

June 1, 2013 at 02:21 PM · The recording sounded to me like too little bow pressure, primarily, and too little bow speed, secondarily. The bow was sliding on the string, not grunting.

There may or may not be any problem with the bow, hair, or rosin... but clearly playing at the softest margins of the range will magnify all of them, in addition to the instrument's preference for more power.

This could all be solved by the Burgess Electric Bow Assist: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ASXbWVDBmg

Or perhaps contact David for advice on strength training.

June 1, 2013 at 02:34 PM · Hi,

Don, that is the danger of offering advice on forums like this without hearing things first hand (I did not have access to a recording like you). Just went by the general perception of what most cases like this are...

Cheers!

June 3, 2013 at 04:41 PM · Do both you and the maker have a light bow when playing or is it humidity/temps? I recall you saying the maker would have the same issue until the violin got acclimated to the shop. Does the shop have a Goldilocks climate for the violin or do you have to dig a bit deeper when bowing? you could try taking it to a friends house and have them play it for a third opinion. Maybe they could bow it a little harder and get proper sound out of it.

Also, you brought up your old violin with the same strings, replicates the same problem with your new one. did that ever used to happen before with your old? If so what changes have you made between when you had your old one and new one? A new bow, strings, playing technique, rosin, etc. If it never happened before some variable must have changed to cause this. Hopefully you can find that variable, fix it, and all will be well!