At what point should a violin student study the Bach Cello Suites
I've been listening to the Bach cello suites recently and started to wonder at what point a violin student should start to study them. What etudes/pieces should the student have already played and what etudes would they be working on while studying the suites? Another interesting question is which ASTA level would the suites be placed?
Thanks for any help.
-Reggie
Replies (18)
Curiously, I had just finished playing the two outer movements of the first cello suite on violin when I switched on the computer and turned up this thread.
I have been given the impression that some material from the suites, transcribed for violin, was recently set for Grade 7 violin in England, but I was not told which examining body chose them.
Is there more than one transcription? I use the edition by Enrico Polo, made from the Bach-Gesellschaft edition of the cello suites and published by Ricordi. (Alas, on a 2010 visit to Rome I was sad to note that Ricordi's very impressive shop at the Piazza Venezia,a frequent haunt of mine when I lived there in the mid 1970s, is now no more.) However, the edition is fine and the bowings and fingerings are helpful.
"grade 7"
I am thoroughly perplexed by the "grading" system and how that relates to actually making music...
@Bill
I would say that the grading level and the making of music are different things, but from a teaching perspective, I was just trying to get a feel as to what skills were pretty solid by the time a student started working on these. Knowing which etudes students are usually working on while studying these provides some perspective and the grade level just gives a pointer to which etudes students are working on at that particular level.
I also have the Riccordi-Polo edition. Perhaps that's the only one extant. Technically these transcriptions are much easier than the original violin sonatas and partitas. Musically they are deceptive, and can be a life's work. I have been very impressed by the DVD master classes of Bernard Greenhouse and the depth he brings to these suites, as well as to Beethoven, etc.
In my teaching I don't relate to grading systems such as those by ASTA or NISMA, but I'd say that if a student is ready for Kreutzer he should be techincally ready for the cello suite transcriptions. That said, the original violin repertoire is so vast and time is limited. The cello suite transcriptions - wonderful as the music is - might be better for independent exploration. A good way for students to get their feet wet with Bach would be the A minor concerto.
While it is not addressing the OP's question, it might be of interest to know that the cello suites are available as a download (free) from the Icking Archive. One can select whether they are notated as for cello, viola, or violin, and they will be suitably transposed.
The archive has much more of interest, and is in the public domain.
The Bourree at the end of Suzuki Book 3 is transcribed from a Bach cello suite. It works very well, I don't see why any of the other cello suites shouldn't work just fine transcribed for the violin. As was said by another, all Bach is good for the violin. Janine Jansen has a recording of the keyboard inventions, it's a lovely album that also includes an excellent D-minor partita.
I must say that I've never hear of the Suites being played on violin... viola yes, but violin?
At any rate, the 1st and 2nd Suites are generally in the 4-5 atsm range, at least on viola. Bach however is deceptively simple. Though they are easy under the hand, it takes experience to pull them off musically. That being said, for a good intermediate player these are great pieces to study.
In my case I learnt the Bach cello suites a few decades before I started playing the violin, and having lately looked at one or two violin versions I'm not convinced that they necessarily transfer all that well from the cello to the violin. I think Bach had the specific sonorities of the cello in mind, and they just aren't present on the violin in that form. Two specific instances come to mind – the 5th suite in C-minor requires the A-string to be dropped to G (ok, it can be played without the scordatura, but it's a pain), and I've come across a serious suggestion that this suite was originally written for the lute (5 or 6 courses).
The D-major 6th suite was written for a 5-string cello-like instrument with a high E-string. This shows up in the high passage work necessary on today's 4-stringed instrument and in the difficult chord playing in movements such as the sarabande. A violin version I've seen of the sarabande obviously had a substantial re-write, otherwise the player would have been wandering into Ernst-land.
The other side of the coin is whether Bach's solo violin suites and sonatas transfer well to the cello. Again, mostly I think not, unless it's a simplified arrangement for student purposes, both for technical fingering reasons and for sonority and speed.
@Trevor--i wonder how # 6 would work on one of the 5 string violin/violas that are cropping up--with the 'c' and the 'e,' like the instrument you are describing? It's certainly a bear on a 4-string viola.
At what point should a violin student study the Bach Cello Suites?
When the student start to play the cello, of course!
...Sorry couldn't help it, forgive me. ;-)
@marjory, although suite #6 would doubtlessly be technically playable on a 5-string violin or viola, as far as fingering and bowing are concerned, I don't think it would have the sound Bach had in mind because of the difficulty in getting these small 5-stringers to resonate properly in the lowest register. For that reason it wouldn't be all that satisfying to play
I read somewhere that Bach may have been writing for a very small 5-string "cello", which would have had the right sort of bass response – perhaps a small child's cello in today's terms? One or two cellists in modern times have had a full-size cello modified to 5 strings specifically for playing suite #6, and Schubert's "Arpeggione" sonata. I think you'd have to be very serious about such a project to have a good quality full-size cello converted to 5 strings (and have a fair amount of cash available for the modification). It may be less expensive to have a small-size student cello modified. If you're going down that route you'll probably be well into Baroque and Early Music anyway, and would be using gut strings.
My bottom line is that the player will be far better off learning to play these works on a standard 4-string cello. If it was good enough for Casals ...
5 string full-size cello (with added e string) is technically challenging, without shortening the neck.
I want to thank everyone for their input, I really appreciate it. Some thoughts:
@Trevor: While I agree that the sonorities are very different and that the feel that the suites capture on cello cannot be matched on violin, there looks to be some interesting things that I might learn from them. For example, you mentioned the C minor suite. I was thinking that one could learn that single line fugue and that knowledge would be useful to apply to the fugues in the violin sonatas.
@Raphael: I agree that given the vastness of the violin literature, this would be something that I would put on a todo list to possibly study on my own. Given that I'm an adult beginner and still working through Kayser I knew I wasn't ready to tackle them at this point, but was more curious than anything.
Thanks again everyone.
-Reggie
If you are currently working through Kayser, you might find Kayser no. 10 a useful preparation for playing the Prelude of the first suite.
You can hear how they sounds on violin going YouTube. Bernard Chevallier had the complete six.
Here is a link to a free version of the Cello Suites transcribed for violin. It is much better than the Riccordi-Polo version IMHO, particularly since it is not edited to the extent that the Riccordi-Polo version is edited. These suites are significantly easier than the violin S&Ps and can be started earlier.
http://imslp.org/wiki/6_Cello_Suites,_BWV_1007-1012_%28Bach,_Johann_Sebastian%29#IMSLP121690
"That said, the original violin repertoire is so vast and time is limited. The cello suite transcriptions - wonderful as the music is - might be better for independent exploration. A good way for students to get their feet wet with Bach would be the A minor concerto."
I kind of agree with this, except that the suites are for unaccompanied solo instrument and the concerto is, well, a concerto.
I studied a few of the suite movements on viola when I started playing viola as an adult (after many years as a violinist only). I found that they were great for independent study, for helping me feel more comfortable reading viola clef, for really getting me to find my way around the viola both fingering and listening, and for performing. I had some little opportunities to perform--at church, busking, at the Farmers' Market, informally for friends--and a Bach suite movement was perfect for that. I didn't have to find an accompanist or an arrangement for solo instrument.
And I'm really not aware of unaccompanied pieces of that quality, technical level, and universal appeal in the violin literature. I've found some fiddle tunes, and I've transcribed melodies out of a fake book on my own, and I've played in string groups. But I haven't really found anything like the Bach suites for solo violin. As others have said, the S&P are technically more advanced, and concertos need an accompanist.
I haven't played the cello suites on the violin myself because I prefer the way they sound on the viola, and I can play the viola. But I understand why violinists might want to do this.
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September 16, 2011 at 08:37 PM ·
My first reaction was, why would one give a violinist the cello suites? I play them on viola, of course, but violin.
Second reaction, was, any Bach, on any instrument, is good.
As a violist, I studied # 1 Prelude fairly early (and later, and now...), probably about the same time I did Kreutzer #8 and began Mazas Book 2.
The double-stop movements are, I believe, harder for vln/vla than on cello, so I'd save those for later in the study. But the prelude mvts of #1, #2, #4 are excellent for musical bow control. And the other dances, well, they are just great, and great fun.