Playing violin and viola
But, I often wonder if viola alto-clef (C clef with C on the middle line) could instead have been dropped two notes so that middle C on the viola would look like G on the D string on the violin. I.e., the notes would be in the same relative position on the instrument, third finger in first position, second string up from the bottom. One would still have to know what the notes are for sharps and flats, but at least in reading I would not suddenly be in the position of having just played a measure as if on the other instrument, which occasionally happens to me when the brain turns off. Further, there would not be a need to switch to G (treble) clef when climbing up on the A string on the viola. One would presume that people settled on the best system over the first few centuries when these instruments were invented, but sometimes I wonder why it is the way it is. I could say the same thing for the cello too. Then a violist could play a cello part without having to learn to think in base clef.
Replies (15)
I'm nowhere near an expert on theory, but I am a violist that has dabble with both cello and violin :) Maybe someone who has studied composition/theory can provide more insight....
If you line up treble clef and bass clef one on top of the other you get the "Grand Staff". Where these two intersect is middle C in Alto Clef. Given that the violin is played in the treble clef register and the cello in the bass clef register it makes sense that the viola takes the middle-road - alto clef.
This avoids ledger lines in the lower register while allowing a switch to another clef for the higher registers or an 8va for violin. Too many ledger lines take up quite a bit of space in the printed music which is normally reserved for non-note notations such as tempo and dynamic markings.
I have no idea why the cello goes to tenor clef vs. using alto clef or even treble clef (as is seen with Dvorak quite frequently for cello). It is something that nearly drove me mad when I studied cello several years ago. I suspect it has something to do with how the earliest music was written for voice (baritone, tenor, alto, and soprano).
If what you described happened, I'd have the hardest time reading a full score. The notations weren't done so people can play two instruments easier, it's for the conductor or composer to not get confused. The four common clefs used in the orchestra was a mirror image of Soprano, Alto, Bass and Tenor voices, also sometimes called SATB. Each instrument would play their specific range and not jump above clefs. It wasn't until virtuosity came in (players wanting to say... make a viola play really high notes like violin) did it become a standard for them to use Tenor and Treble.
I don't know that much about clef origins and there are already quite a few good insights about this. My first instrument was piano, followed two years later by violin and several years later I picked up the viola as well. In theory class the violas had to explain to the class how to read alto clef, upon which I had discovered that if you take a grand staff (and middle C) the alto clef takes two treble clef lines and two bass clef lines, and middle C is of course the middle line.
I think Mendy's explanation is pretty similar to how I have interpreted the clefs, and alto clef does leave more room to expand in to the treble range without changing clefs and this also suits the instruments' range well. My brother is a cellist and I have seen tenor clef and although I have not personally played in tenor clef I assume it is similar to a viola switching to treble clef-- it's placement suits the instrument's range.
I'm assuming the breakdown of clefs were to accomodate range placement, not to be fitted to any instrument, but the range of the modern instruments (viola and cello) fits those clefs better in each particular range.
The tenor clef, which is located on the second line down( the viola clef is on the third) is easy for the cellist because all that needs to be done is to play like you're playing in the bass clef but on the next string up. However, life gets interesting if a cellist is unexpectedly asked to play a solo from the viola clef in a concert due to the violist's unscheduled absence, as happened to me once. It took me a day to recover my equilibrium, I can tell you.
The cellist also uses the treble clef, playing at the written pitch,and that is generally no problem. However, there was a bizarre convention in some 19th century German scores that the cellist would play the treble clef at the written pitch only if it followed on directly from the tenor clef; but if the treble clef followed on from the bass clef then it had to be transposed down an octave at sight. A cellist today who is not aware of this convention and is perhaps reading from a 19th century quartet part can get a surprise when he finds he is apparently required to play in the same pitch range as the first violin.
Look at it this way, Wendel: Alto clef keeps the riffraff out of the viola section!
I vote with Wendel, but I agree with Trevor.
Andy
Clefs come to us from ancient music where they were keyed to the range of human voices, and the range of human voices was kept narrow to enforce the character of the modes then in use. The alto clef, which is a "C" clef, is used to show where middle C is on the staff. Same for the tenor clef. Theoretically, you could move any of the clefs, C, G, or F clefs anywhere on the staff and keep the range of written music within the staff and perhaps one ledger line above or below. It helps the eye, which has trouble differentiating where the note is when it is several ledger lines above and below the staff. But it also would make it difficult for a bass player like me, who reads bass (F) clef where F is on the second line to switch easily to baritone clef where F is on the third line.
Clefs also indicated the quality and range of voices, with the highest voices in treble (G) clef, the middle voices in C clef, and and the bass voices in F clef. As instruments improved and their ranges increased far beyond what most human voices could accommodate, it became necessary to move to different clefs within a piece to reduce the number of lines above the staff. Then certain instruments went out of style, such as the tenors, which has since required the cellos to play all over the place using three different clefs.
The modern families, like the sax, use a common system where even the bass instruments read in treble clef, which makes it easy for musicians to switch among the different sizes of saxophones. I think that clefs have outlived their purposes. It would now be most logical to have any stringed instrument that has G as its lowest string to use the G clef, and any with C as the lowest string to use C clef on the middle line. But there is such a great amount of music already written in the various clefs that clefs will likely continue to be used for a long time to come.
Why have we made it harder to play both Violin and Viola?
Why not make the violin and viola a transposition instrument pair?
I play both volin and viola. Which requires carrying two different fingerings in my head. But this is an artificially induced problem that could be easily avoided if we just wrote the music differently. Someone playing the clarinet or a horn can learn on one instrument and then play any in the same family when the family has the same fingering. If you play a C trumpet for example, you can pick up a B flat trumpet and play it just fine. This is accomplished by transposing the music for the B flat trumpet from the C trumpet. For example, a C on a C clarinet will be a C. Pick up an alto clarinet and fingering the same note on the instrument reading the same note on the music in the same clef, and you get a different pitch a major 6th lower, so that would be a D (I think). So the music is transitioned for the other clarinet to give the desired pitch when played and this will mean changing the key that the part is written in so that the flats and sharps will come out correctly.
For example for the violin and viola: From the IMSLP website you can download the Bach Suite I for cello for the viola in C alto clef in the key of G, and for the violin in G treble clef in the key of D. My point is this: if you pick up the viola and read the violin part, and finger the viola like you were playing a violin, you will be playing the correct notes. And you don’t have to learn a different clef. Reading music, you have to almost instantly move your finger to the correct place on the instrument, taking in whole measures at a time. Trying to achieve that with two different systems is an unnecessary difficulty. By transposing the music, people could go between the violin and viola seamlessly. Extend the idea to the cello, and you could hand a cello part to a violist with no problem.
While saxophone music is all written in treble clef, it works that way because the instrument is entirely mechanical in the operation of its fingering system. Aside from some register challenges and individual quirks between instrument manufacturers, saxophone fingering is identical for nearly every size of saxophone, including the rare ones at the extreme ranges. A whole step on the smallest saxophone is fingered pretty much the exact same way on the largest one. While the hands are further apart, the spacing of the keys for each hand are not.
In contrast, string instruments just don't function that way. 1-2 can be whole step on the violin, but you usually play it 1-3 on the cello, and 1-4 on the double bass.
Honestly, I don't think it's really that difficult to read all the clefs once you understand that the symbol determines the placement of a specific note. Even my junior high students in 6th and 7th grades have gotten fairly reliable at naming notes in clefs other than the ones they read for their instrument after practicing with the Tenuto iOS app for a few weeks.
I prepare violin/viola scores on two staves with the same pitches in each clef, then viola/cello scores with a) the same pitches, b)with the viola an octave higher than the cello.
That way we are ready for anything!
Traditionally, it's a matter of range: cello parts (before concerti and Romantic orchestral pieces took them into the stratosphere) 'fit' into the note range covered by the bass clef; violin into the treble. Soprano singers' range fit the 'soprano clef' where middle "C" is on the second line; tenor clef fit the higher male range. Alto clef fit alto singers (and viola).
Reading each independently, rather than thinking of 'transposing,' is probably easier and more efficient.
It really sounds like you need to theorize less and just play more, because reading two clefs isn't such a big deal. I have cellist-friends who also doubles on gamba and became fluent on bass, tenor, alto, and treble clefs on different instruments, and they don't whine about it. One did she say she had a headache at first, I'll give you that. Just treat it has as a brain exercise.
If viola parts are transposed, score reading would be a nightmare...
I think you should just learn to read alto clef as a separate thing. When I took up viola, the first couple of weeks were pretty confusing; after a while, though, I learned to think in alto clef. I can still pick up my violin and read treble clef; my brain manages to change gears without much difficulty (although a friend has enough trouble making the switch that he's set his violin aside for a while).
Where it gets interesting is in some orchestral pieces I've played where the viola part goes up into 3rd position in places. The score switches to treble clef in those spots, then back to alto clef when it comes back down; rapidly switching back and forth takes some practice.
But we violists don't have it that bad. Some cello music switches back and forth between bass and tenor clef (C clef one line up from alto clef), and really high cello passages are written in treble clef - so cellists have to be able to read three clefs.
Give alto clef a bit of work; in the end you'll probably find that it's not as hard as it seems.
I've even seen 'cello parts where the tenor clef was replaced by the treble clef an octave lower, as in tenor choral parts...
My young violists read directly in the alto clef, but hate switching to the treble clef - in spite of reading it fluently in their "solfège" lessons.
This discussion has been archived and is no longer accepting responses.
Violinist.com is made possible by...
Dimitri Musafia, Master Maker of Violin and Viola Cases
Johnson String Instrument/Carriage House Violins
Subscribe
Laurie's Books
Discover the best of Violinist.com in these collections of editor Laurie Niles' exclusive interviews.
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 1, with introduction by Hilary Hahn
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 2, with introduction by Rachel Barton Pine
March 17, 2011 at 02:05 AM ·
It's not likely to change real soon!
If it was a transposing instrument like woodwinds for instance then you could have all the notes looking the same. An alto sax player can switch to a tenor sax and read with the same fingers, notes in the same positions.
I did once know a vioinist who was asked by a composer to play part of his piece on viola. The violinist agreed on the condition that the part was transposed up a 5th.