price of repair/restoration-- What would YOU pay?
I just got a second repair/restoration estimate for my 1935 Reindahl Craigslist special, as previously discussed on Violinist.com
Strangled Violin thread. Here is a list from one shop:
Remove, rest belly, Clean, glue, brace cracks, Brace crack beside button, Retouch varnish, Dress fingerboard, New soundpost, New Bridge, New pegs, New tailpiece, Sacconi
i'm not sure what "rest belly" means. restore? let it sit for a while?
Since I don't know what the instrument's true potential is, I am having a hard time determining what I'm willing to spend. (note, i am NOT trying to disparage the price of the work!)
What would YOU spend on significant repairs & restoration for an instrument with an unknown, but potential value that could fall anywhere between $2000 -$15,000?
Replies (16)
Does "rest belly" mean restore belly?
Unless I had an emotional attachment to a particular instrument, I would certainly not care to pay more than than the violin is worth, including whatever I paid to start with, and costs of marketing if I decided I wanted to sell it after I heard it once fixed up. Can you take this to a couple other places & ask for their estimates of its value once restored (you could use the list of items already detailed to you.) I second "rstore". You mentioned cracks, which must be in the top, since the luthier wants to take that off. Sue
Well, assuming you want the best possible work done by people who know what they're doing, who will invest the time to not only make the instrument structurally and cosmetically sound but also seek its best sound potential...I would say that in expensive areas spending upwards of a thousand dollars isn't unreasonable.
Just the cost and labor involved in cutting and setting up a bridge for example...$80-$100 isn't uncommon for an average quality Aubert or Despiau (adjusted for the region of course...in Southern California where I live, everything costs significantly more than my friends who live in say, Michigan).
Hi Helen, I'd be willing to bet that "rest belly" is actually "reset belly" which means reglue the top back in place after it has been repaired. In restoration estimates, there is usually a single charge to remove and then reglue the top which is a different charge from repairing the cracks.
It would be impossible to answer the question that you've asked about "How much would you pay... for …Clean, glue, brace cracks, Brace crack beside button, Retouch varnish..." None of these items have a standard charge (like replacing a sacconi tail loop). For example, cleaning, gluing, and cleating cracks could be a very minor charge of less than $100 up to well over several thousand dollars depending on where the cracks are, how bad they are, if they have had bad repairs before, etc. The same thing can be said for the crack at the button--Does it simply need to be glued, or does something like a button graft need to be done. Retouching varnish can be as simple as touching in a single nick, or restoring vastly damaged areas of the finish.
My advice to you is to take it to a luthier that you trust that you know does good restoration work (If you don't know of any, I'm sure your fellow players can give you recommendations). Get an estimate, and discuss what the items are on the estimate with the restorer. I don't know of any restorer that won't take the time to discuss things with the client. Ask about the value of the instrument (before and after the restoration), and the cost of the restoration, and if things make sense to do from a financial standpoint. The value of $2000 to $15,000 would seem to be a bit wide ranging, so try to pin down the value of the violin a bit more accurately. Restoration estimates do vary from restorers because of training, expertise, and location of the restorer.
Josh Henry, Bow Maker & Restorer
www.FineViolinBows.com
thanks, folks!
Quote Josh: "I'd be willing to bet that "rest belly" is actually "reset belly""
that sounds likely. thanks for the explanation. Guess I can't skip that step.
there is no doubt that the instrument needs serious work and that the two places that gave me quotes do excellent repair/restoration work. I was simply shocked at the price quoted by the shop that inspected the instrument. Like the figure Gene tossed out, I was mentally prepared to pay $1,000, but one quote was ~ ~ way ~ ~ in excess of that. It was in shock when I saw the estimate. In my sometimes fearful mind, the estimate plus other charges I have & will incur could equal the value of the violin (if the tone doesn't improve significantly). I have a written appraisal of my 1907 instrument by the same maker, and I know sale prices of a handful of instruments by the same maker, so I have a basis for an educated guess on value, but no one knows how the instrument will sound. How can they appraise an instrument without hearing it? In addition, there are wildcards. The maker was 78 when he built it-- is it of similar quality as his prior instruments? He died 6 months after completing the violin-- is it the last instrument completed before the maker died (it might be)?
I did not intend this thread to be a judgment on the price of the repairs-- i am not quoting prices-- i'm just batting thoughts around in my skull and wondering how other folks might base their decision. The value of the instrument obviously plays a role for Sue, as I'm sure it does for most folks, but without playing it, I wouldn't trust anyone's appraisal (is that crazy?).
No judgment here regarding your reaction to the price of repairs. Your question was whether it would be worth it, and that was a good question. If we spend 2 years restoring a valuable Strad, the money can be recovered. It can't on a $5000 violin.
At the same time, going the cheapest repair route can actually diminish the value of a violin. Sometimes, the wisest route is to leave it alone, and look for another speculator who will buy it.
I've looked into this before, and it's difficult, because there's no guarantee how a violin's going to sound after major surgery, especially one in your price range. It could be a real sleeper and sound great, or the opposite. Also, sometimes after it's opened, they recommend a new bass bar or some regraduating, and it costs more than the original estimate, but still cheaper than reopening later. Can you find another instrument that's decent for around same price these repairs would cost? If the repairs are going to be over $1,500 or so, maybe you can, and you can play it first rather than speculate on the finished product.
I had a similar dilemma, though with an instrument without any pedigree or emotional attachment. I had been saving to buy a violin for around 3,000, so used that as my benchmark for how much I was willing to spend in repairs - in other words I would have spent up to $2000 to repair the violin (aus dollar).
I was quite convinced I would go ahead and do this, but there was some hard to take and honest feedback from the guys here who have already responded to you (thread is here, from about 2 years ago).
What ended up convincing me NOT to do this though,was a good talk with MY The Luthier, who said - to take top off reset is a big job, expensive job + having identified that the bass bar was not traditionally placed, and the saddle was uneven, and the top and ribs were out of synchrony, he couldn't guarantee that correcting all of those things would make a GOOD difference to the sound of the instrument. The sound as it was was something I really liked apart from weakness over the D string, and there was no guarantee that the surgery would help.
I started looking at other violins in the price range I had been willing to spend for repairs , and realised that it would be wasted money. I didn't want to accept that fact, because I really wanted for that violin to become better. I still have it, and my plan for when I retire is to gradually learn to do the work myself, because I can take full responsibility. If its a stuff up then so be it, but I can take time and learn. I have a couple of junkers that I will experiment on first. I don't know if any of this helps you, but that is how I made my decision.
Best of luck, Sharelle
Hi Helen:
When a client asks me if an instrument is "worth" restoring, I often answer:
Economically speaking, if the anticipated restoration of the piece (we're talking normal, affordable to a mortal type pieces) reaches, or surpasses, 1/2 of the anticipated replacement value of that instrument (after repair), it's probably a good idea to have a nice cup of tea/coffee/wine/etc. and really consider if it's worth it to you.
So... I'd suggest you nail down values before taking on the project.
Certainly, there are times to consider historical value, or personal value... but that wasn't your question. :-)
It's really hard for me to comment in a meaningful way concerning your estimate. I don't know who you're working with, that persons skill level, or their rates.
Hope I've helped,
Jeffrey
Helen, when the potential value is between $2000 and $15,000, there's no sane way to make a decision like this. The factors you'll have to take into account are more along the lines of how much of a gambler you are. Do you have the money? Would you be simply aggravated, or totally ticked off if the instrument didn't live up to expectations? What would you do with this particular chunk of money if you didn't spend it on the restoration? If you can live with the uncertainty, it's might be worth a try. If your shins will be black and blue for years from kicking yourself if it doesn't pan out, don't do it.
David wrote: At the same time, going the cheapest repair route can actually diminish the value of a violin.
this violin is proof of that!
Sometimes, the wisest route is to leave it alone, and look for another speculator who will buy it.
dang, David, you are way too good at telling me things I don't want to hear! ;-)
Sharelle- sounds like your instrument was a train wreck. It was fun to see one post in the discssion- i think it was from the shop that set up my instrument and sold me my bow back in the 1970s. The 1935 violin i'm referring to was poorly repaired, but it _should_ be a qualilty instrument.
Jeffrey wrote: "if the anticipated restoration ... reaches, or surpasses, 1/2 of the ...value of that instrument ...."
Jeff-- that is exactly the kind of thing that i can relate to-- a simple easy formula. simple things for simple folks (me). :-) it helps. thanks!
Lisa wrote: "when the potential value is between $2000 and $15,000, there's no sane way to make a decision like this. ...how much of a gambler you are...."
lol. that 'bout sums it up!
My violin is in the shop of a well-known violin restorer in Chicago. He assures me that the money spent on the repairs will result in a much better instrument. However, I doubt that it will affect the sale value of the violin, which I anticipate will eventually happen, for economic reasons.
Why am I posting this? The instrument has cracks, which he'll repair for $100 a cm, and I won't go into the total of the repairs (ouch!). But the bottom line which I want to impart to all is _Get Your Violin and Bow(s) Insured As A Scheduled Item On Your Homeowner's Policy!!! In my case, there was proof that I was at least in part responsible for the damage, which meant that the repairs are covered without a deductible. There are some conditions to this but I'll spare you the verbiage.
Hello Brooke- I found that my homeowners policy only covered my instrument for $1000, so I had to insure mine separately. I'm sure policies vary wildly, so it would behoove us all to know just what is and isn't covered. thanks for the reminder!
Pierre- thank you for the kind offer, but i wouldn't expect any decent repair person to make a quote or estimate without seeing the violin in person. The quote I got was from a very top notch shop. I was not trying to solicit estimates or outrage- that wasn't the point of my post. I was a bit shocked, venting, and wondering where I should draw the line! There were extenuating circumstances with the 1935- the crack may have been poorly repaired, then the repair/hacker added a nice thick coat (or 5) of varnish over the whole violin. Actually, he may have done more damage before he varnished... don't ask. So the previous "repair" attempt has to be undone, and then proper work done, then the excessive new varnish dealt with. Ten times the work, probably!
The fellow who has it now is busy sleuthing my maker and the violin. He will do what needs to be done at a reasonable price. (i hope! i haven't gotten his final estimate, yet, just his initial impressions).
Pierre wrote:
"Helen, I'll ask a few violin maker friends of mine what they think is reasonable. I for one think that paying over 1000 dollars is robbery for what you describe. It is however hard to tell without seeing the actual cracks though. Can you take and send pictures?"
"Remove, rest belly, Clean, glue, brace cracks, Brace crack beside button,Retouch varnish, Dress fingerboard, New soundpost, New Bridge, New pegs, New tailpiece, Sacconi"
Pierre;
I think what a "fair price" is depends on who does the work, what their skill level/reputation is, the expectation of the job and how involved it is, and the instrument.... and if you look on Helen's other thread (which she linked to in her original post), you can see photos... and there are also some repair photos you may want to view.
www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm
Based on what I can see in the photos, the real "meat" of Helen's repair are the rather nasty cracks on the top, which will require the top to be removed to properly access, clean and reinforce them. A goodly amount of time will also be required to register the cracks and close the voids. Then there's the varnish issue... and we haven't even approached the setup (dressing the board, pegs, tailpiece, bridge & post).
Honestly, this type of violin isn't the kind I'd take on, as I believe I'd approach a few things differently (I tend to take on instruments where the value allows me the freedom to go "all out") and know my rates would probably push at the viability of the job (according to my own formula offered earlier in this thread). Knowing what is appropriate for me work on, and explaining to clients what is advisable is what I believe is honorable and ethical behavior. I don't believe it's fair to suggest another's rates are appropriate or not without knowing the pertinent details. That's why I offered Helen a formula rather than a verdict.
Anyway, my point is, that the real problem occurs when a player expects the violin to receive a high level of attention, and it doesn't. A fine repair can preserve the value of a piece... but can be expensive. A lousy one further erodes the value... which in the end can be more expensive (actually, it's what Helen is dealing with presently). Based on the photos, I can't imagine anyone capable of delivering a fine repair offering to tackle this one for under 1K. My own rates would dictate a cost of well over that... but what do I know? I just do this for a living. :-)
Cheers,
Jeffrey
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December 19, 2010 at 09:51 AM ·
Hi Helen;
I don't know what "rest belly" means either. I haven't run into the term before in the maker/restorer community. It is what I do after Thanksgiving dinner, but I have no idea how this would apply to a violin. :-)