How to improve intoation on all notes?
I can hear the difference in quater tones but I always am uncertain whether I am intune or not, should I memorise the piano pitches by singing it out or is there a better way to improve intonation? I usually play out of tune from fifth position upwards.
Replies (18)
I'm not a fan of matching the chromatic tuner. As players of string instruments, we have to learn how to play with Pythagorean intonation. Chromatic tuners are established on an even-tempered scale, where all half steps are equal. You have to be able to distinguish the functions and tendencies of scale steps in their melodic and harmonic contextg. What does that mean? Once you are centered with the tonic, dominant [and subdominant[, the scale steps around them have "directions" to or from another. The leading tone is usually climbing to the tonic. So essentially in Eb minor the D natural before an Eb could be fairly much sharper than the open D string. It's not to say that learning piano or orchestra intonation is a waste of time (in fact, you also have to learn harmonic tendencies in an even-tempered context for chamber music, etc.), but if you are able to play "tonally", that is, thinking of how the center of the pitch of a certain note name changes depending on the tonality, then it's easier to tone it down and make all the scale steps even for when you play iwth a piano. But you'll grow to learn that this intonation is less satisfying than what we can do on theviolin
Are you unable to hear whether you're in tune up high, or do you suspect a problem of getting fingers to cooperate and make the tiny spacings needed? Sue
Compare the notes that you can with your open strings and use those as your reference points. In the long run, scales will be your main way of improving overall intonation. I think it is just a matter of time put in on the violin, but be sure to practice plenty of scales! Good luck!
An interesting example of the importance of intonation is in the development section of the first movement of Schubert's String Quartet No 13 D.804. In the cello part there are 4 bars of G# followed by 4 bars of A-flat. As we found when playing that quartet a couple of days ago, if you take care to flatten the G# very slightly into A-flat you can hear the subtle enharmonic key change spreading through the quartet, and the effect is magical; it cannot be replicated on the piano.
There are so many ways to answer this question, but I'll just make one comment. Don't forget about the bow! Bow pressure on the string can alter your intonation by 1/4 tone. You'll want to make sure that when you draw your bow that you're putting a consistent amount of pressure/speed to make it both sound good and allow you to maintain consistent intonation.
Greetings,
this question is always difficult to answer but it does kind of boil down to the interaction between awareness and technique. In other words , to what extent are you aware of your bad intonation and to what extent technical defects are causing it. The problem is how to tackle all and everything that lies along this very broad spectrum.
There are threads which go into very learned and technical discussions about the right way to tune the violin on this site. Lots to be learned there but at the end of the day you have to basically be able to tune your violin `accurately` in fifths. Working from this over simplification it is important to recognize that the violin is actually a self organizing tuning system. What I mean by this is that everything has to tuned (perhaps another simplification) to the open strings. So, whatever you are doing, if you play a `d` in the e string in third position or the same note on the g string it has to be the same `d` as your open string. This applies to all notes of the open strings. Starting from here will give you a plac eto begin solving intonation problems . I would say that I demand of new students again and again `check with the open strings` and players who have been going for years without doing this do a piss poor job of checking. The laziness of the ear they have learned quickly carries over into not caring enough when checking. They simply hack away at the opne e at the heel of the bow and then continue to play a lower `e` completely out of tune. One has to take time and care when working at this most basic thing. If one is not willing to do this and experiment with the note until it is right then no progress will be made.
The second point about this checking is that adjusting a note is not helpful. I have said this a millino times on this site. Some people agree, some vehemently disagree. Not my problem;):
What we do in practice is what comes out in performance.
What we do in practice is what comes out in performance.
What we do in practice is what comes out in performance.
What we do in practice is what comes out in performance.
What we do in practice is what comes out in performance.
What we do in practice is what comes out in performance.
So, if you practice your intonation by sliding a finger around to find the right note, then that is what you are practicing and that is what you will perform: messy finger sliding. If you want to correct intonation then listen to your open string . evaluate your wrong note, LIFT the finger and replace it closer to the TRUTH. Evaluate again, LIFT again and place it closer to the TRUTH. If you can@t be bothered to work on this time consuming and arduous task then learn the piano - its easier.
Having absorbed these fundamental points (a major step in getting intonation under control) one has to recognize at a deep level that the expressive nature of the violin is based on color and color derives in large part from -awareness of key=. Again, I have said it a million times here and some people agree whille others don`t: f# and g flat are completely different notes with completely different functions.
There is only one way to learn the different colors and feelings of the various keys: practice scales -IN TUNE=. Most people don`t. The basic method for learning to play scales in tune was well known and taught by Casals and then widely by Dorothy DeLay. I learnt about it luckily because my teacher had an indirect connection to Casals. The person today who has most clearly described and developed this approach to intonation is Simon Fishcer. You can find the key points in his book `Basics` and one needs ot invest a great deal of time and energy in what he says there. Start with the section on intonation and then work in the rythm, accent and bowing exercises. There is not a great deal of point in working on the kind of mentally challenging Galamian approach to scales (one I am a big fan of) unless one is really first establishing good intonation/listening habits
Incidentally, a simple exercise that markedly improves intonation can be found in Kievman`s book `Practicing the violin Mentally.` Play an open string and fix then sound in your head. Remove left hand and bow from violin. Pause and imagine the note in your head. Play it as a stopped note in another position. Don`t do any preparation and don`t wifggle the finger around as I criticized above. Decide if the note is sharp or flat and to what degree. Then repeat the procedure until you have it down. Once you are getting good at this make the easy note in first position a stopped one. A few minutes of this work involves intense cocnentration and listening and develops a keen sense of accuracy along the fingerboard.
Cheers,
Buri
....and as usual Buri is amazingly correct. I as well as my students need to do more of this work!!
Ditto what Buri said. I'd also add Yost shifting exercises and while doing so checking the note against an open string since you mentioned it being a problem in higher positions.
I'm assuming for the moment that 5th and beyond is new fingerboard territory for you. The Yost shifting exercises will help develop "hand position knowledge" and how the left hand changes configurations from string to string and position to position. Checking the beginning and ending notes of a shift against an open string will help train your hear to discern its relative pitch.
This can be a time consuming exercise, but very effective. Hope it helps!
Greetings,
I should have perhaps mentioned another key factor in intonation problems. I liken it to the idea of `homeostasis,` which means the body always returns to what it is most used to as opposed to what is good for it. The mind tends to classify this is `comfortable` which is why new and correct habits are hard to acquire because they are `uncomfortable.` In the same way, the ear quickly learns the `wrong` pitch which becomes the norm and correct intonation then starts to sound weird and unpleasnt to the player. The simplest way to cure this distortion in the higher positions is to repeatedly play the passage in a lower octave until you have retrained the ear , then return to the higher position.
However, it does seem likely that the earlier comment about the bow weight is a facotr here. It is one of the major failings of violnists that when they shift to a higher position they drop the scroll of the violin. This tends to let the bow drift towards the fingerboars which means the short length of e string you have created is even less able to take the weight of the bow than if you played near the bridge. Thus intonation work should also be combined with the tone production exercises described by Simon in both `Basics` and his new DVD.
Cheers,
Buri
So to summarize:
In tune intervals = In tune scales.
:)
Another method for improving intonation is practicing against a drone (in any key). Playing along with one of these is an excellent way to improve intonation, regardless of key or position. It's been used in Indian music for training and performance for centuries, although over here, in some quarters it's use is frowned upon - although I have yet to hear a reason why.
Here's the full machine :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uNZRcx1_id8 and it also has the facility to fine-tune to any note. Some say it's an expensive way to keep in tune, but one way of looking at it is, it's roughly the cost of 3 sets of good strings, and should last a lifetime, so ...
The cheaper alternative is the mp3 format drone. Freely available (or at a very low cost) on the internet, in all keys.
All the teacher's I respect the most seem to offer the same fundamental advice: isolate the problem by going slowly enough to sort it all out, both mentally and physically. Really slowly.
Sassmanshaus brings a metronome into the mix by recommending that you set it on 40: "Click!: play just one smooth pretty note until "Click!, then play nothing but do sing the next note (on a scale, etude or any phrase) in your head until "Click!... then play that note that you just imagined. Play to a click, sing the next note to yourself to the next click, etc.
It seems the slower you work, the quicker you learn...
(I will admit that every couple of months, someone poses some problem or another on this list and I offer that tip up as advice. Unabashedly.)
"In tune intervals = In tune scales."
Not really true on the violin. The most important thing in playing in tune on the violin is to make sure that notes resonate correctly. The violin is peculiar and stands alone from almost every other instrument in that each and every notes draws a different resonance. Any note that is a multiple of an open strings must resonate fully. Flat notes should sound darker and less resonant. But most importantly, one must learn how each note on the instrument should resonate, and that takes time. After teaching for years, I can listen to a single note on any of my student's instruments (I don't have perfect pitch) and tell if it's resonating correctly. Notes in the upper position tend to resonate more, so that does make it a little more difficult to discern.
In spite of the above, I will also say that working on pitch with a tuner drone will help most students dramatically, even if the tuner isn't tuned to pythagorean tuning. A student that plays well with the tuner is getting very, very close.
This is what I tell my students to improve their intonation:
1. listen for resonance on notes that are an 8, 5 or 4th from an open string.
2. get leading tones closer (most students do not play them close enough, especially high up).
3. Make sure 3rds of the scale reflect the mode (major or minor).
Greetings,
depends on the style of music, speed of music and personal taste.
Cheers,
Buri
Martin, I'm talking about 2 problems that students typically have:
1. half-steps: in my experience, students have trouble getting any half steps close enough. Almost without exception, they play them somewhere between a half and whole step. They almost NEVER play half-steps too close. And this leads to....
2. high positions: it takes time for students learning the high positions to be able to habitually move the fingers out of the way so that half-steps (and even whole steps) are close enough.
As far as the question "how close should leading tones be?" I'd say as close as possible to start. I'd rather a student played them too close to begin with than too far apart, but it rarely goes that way.
Scott
Just recently I saw an iPad app that gave instant feedback on intonation, no matter what the pitch or octave. You can set where you want "A" to be (440 or anything else) and choose from over a dozen different pitch systems including Pythagorean, mean-tone, etc. Because key matters when you move away from equal tempered, you get to select that as well. Pretty cool for about $20.
But knowing how to practice still matters more than the gadget employed.
This discussion has been archived and is no longer accepting responses.
Violinist.com is made possible by...
Elmar Oliveira International Violin Competition
Dimitri Musafia, Master Maker of Violin and Viola Cases
Johnson String Instrument/Carriage House Violins
Subscribe
Laurie's Books
Discover the best of Violinist.com in these collections of editor Laurie Niles' exclusive interviews.
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 1, with introduction by Hilary Hahn
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 2, with introduction by Rachel Barton Pine
November 23, 2010 at 08:53 PM ·
Hello,
Some violinists use a chromatic tuner to improve their intonation. Before I used to have somebody sit at the piano and play with me while practicing the scales.
Another suggestion is to use a drone string, that is, playing an open string simultaneously with the note you are playing. For example open D string and A string - third finger.
I hope this helps.
Jan