Sound problems = structural problems
I've had some concerns about the deteriorating quality of sound in my violin, and when I noticed what looked to be a little popped seam at the rib near the end button, I though I'd best seek the luthier.
So yesterday I had a fascinating 2 hours of diagnosis and proposed treatment with a well credentialled luthier in Sydney - Gabor Balogh. (A charismatic and personable gentleman might I add, with an impressive orderliness and cleanliness to his workshop and reception area. I'll try to summarise what he said. I may have mixed up some of the information, so if others have something to add or correct, feel free.
He was able to tell me a little about my violin, which was bought last year via ebay. Although the label is German (Klingenthal), he felt it was made in East Germany, probably at the time stated on the label (1987) due to some things I'm vague about, and the way the pegs hve been fitted – with too sharp an angle so that the peg becomes eliptical and fails to naturally adjust by moving in toward the holes as the instrument ages. The scroll and varnishing however look Chinese (I still don't know how these guys know this by sight), and I came away thinking that probably the guy who made it has bought the plates, neck and scroll from China and assembled it himself. That, as Gabor suggested, is a bit odd, seeing as how at that time, China was still Less trading partner and more Communist, and East Germany was still in the bloc. So, it has an odd history, and I suspect this was the first and possibly last attempt at making a violin by the purported Edgar Korner.
So to the diagnosis of why I have lost sound:
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The ribs have swollen and are now bulging out over the edge of the plate. This has caused a complete blowout on the treble side of the sound hole, and the early stage of a blow out on the bass side = you can clearly see the increased concavity (or convexity, depending on which bit you look at) as the ribs pass around the end button. The seam pop at present is a good 5 cm.
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The tail piece is too long for the instrument, and although its at the shortest adjustment of the gut, there is not sufficient string afterlength.
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The saddle is uneven, meaning that the tailpiece sits on an angle.
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The bass bar has been installed too far to the treble side, by easily a few mm.
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The bridge is standard foot width, which means that at the bass bar is exerting upward pressure on the bass side of the top, the bridge is exerting an uncontested downward pressure just to the bass side, and you can see the drop in level of the f hole.
And then, the proposed treatment:
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New pegs.
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New bridge fitted so it has narrower feet, more balanced on the bassbar, and higher. This is the cheaper way for addressing this problem. The expensive fix is to take off the top, remove and replace the bass bar. That in itself may cost about AU$1200.
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New tailpiece/gut.
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Repair the ribs. The cheaper attempt will involve trying to repair via the aperture at the saddle and endpin. The expensive repair, if the former is not possible, will be to remove the top. If this has to be done, I will have him do the bass bar correction as well, since ½ the expense in that is removing the top.
All up, to do the cheapest remedies, will still be about AU$1400, but as I paid ver little for it initially, this will still only take the money spent on it to about $2000. Since I have played a number of instruments at about that price range, and I much prefer the playability and sound of mine, I see it as a reasonable expense. If I need to go the expensive repairs, it will still only be about 2000.00, so I'm still satisfied that the violin will reward me for my investment. Its still pretty cheap for a decent instrument.
What I loved, was how the sound problems so clearly related to the structural defects. It makes me want to be a repairer, I could really get into the problem solving and reasoning.
The worst thing is that now I don't actually have an instrument to practise on. Repair my take 6 weeks, hopefully less.
Replies (18)
Hi Sharelle,
I had similar problems with one of my violins. I had a hairline crack along the middle of the table, cracked rib near the end pin, and needed a new bridge fitted, and the neck adjusted. I take my violins to Les Belanyi at Blakehurst. His charges are very reasonable. The results were fantastic. The violin was suddenly more playable, with a lovely sweet tone.
I'm almost certain that he would charge a fair amount less for the kind of repairs that you need.
His phone number is: 9547 1718
He often provides a spare violin while the repair is being done. If not, I can rent you one. I'm based at Cronulla.
Good luck!
Regards, Kym Staton
That's almost double what the same work would cost around here. Might be worth it on a concert quality instrument, but you might be throwing good money after bad on an Ebay instrument. You can get a pretty decent fiddle, made correctly and sounding good for $2000, even in OZ.
MIchael has nailed it. Is the violin worth the money to invest in the repair?
Since lower prices for the work have been mentioned, keep in mind that not all repair work is equal, so price comparisons might not be the best way to select a luthier.
It's not unlike selecting a musician for a gig. Price is no guarantee of quality, but expect to pay more for a really good player.
If you scroll to the bottom of THIS page, you can see some "before and after" pictures of repairs by people who are really good. Whether this kind of quality matters to you is up to you. I've partly linked to it for educational purposes, because a lot of people don't have an idea of what's possible.
Hi Sharelle
I listened to some of your videos on Youtube to get a sense of what your violin sounded like before the repairs became necessary. The sound isn't so bad, but the D string sounds a bit awful to me. This probably is because, as you said, the bass bar is positioned wrong.
You're talking about spending a lot of money to repair this instrument, and you don't even know whether it will sound good when you get it back. It would be better to simply put your money into a new instrument. This is why it is a terrible idea to buy a violin on the internet. You really need to play an instrument before you buy it. Even better, you should bring along a few other violinists to help you.
How much did you pay for this instrument when you first acquired it? Instruments in the ~$500 USD (~$1000? Australian?) are, more often than not, scrapped when major repairs are needed. Unless an instrument of that quality sounds particularly great, there isn't much reason to fix one.
My own music shop, Metzler's (advertised on this site), is very honest with customers. Some luthiers are not so honest, and they know that musicians love their instruments - want them fixed, etc. Once, I brought a shattered viola to Metzler's (I didn't shatter it), and they brought me out a few new violas to try. They explained to me that it just wasn't worth it to repair that other viola.
When you repair an instrument, it's always a gamble, you see. If your instrument is extremely fine, and worth $10,000 initially, then that's a gamble you want to take. Repairing a $1,000 dollar violin, only to find out that it sounds like a $50 violin after the repairs, might be a bad idea.
For the prices that you are paying for those repairs, you could have gotten an absolutely wonderful violin from the Metzler shop here in Glendale. Why, I played one in that price range last week that was gold, I tell you =).
If I were you, I would get that luthier on the horn right away and start talking about whether you should invest in a new instrument. From the sounds of your violin in the video (even through the cheap mic), it seems very questionable that the instrument should be repaired.
I could be wrong about this. After all, that mic was bad. What did the luthier say about the value of your instrument? Never mind his knowledge of Chinese varnish - what are the bottom lines here?
The bottom line for a critical reponse to your problem is simple - you should seriously consider buying a new instrument.
Well, aside from that, I think your luthier's repairs seem a bit pricey.
Sharelle, good luck!!! He seems of a good advice! I don't know the standards about fees but he looks knowledgable! Sure, I agree with others to be cautious to be sure if it worths it or not. The most important is that you like its sound!
Anne-Marie
We have a saying/character description here in the states: "Armchair Quarterback". The poster(s) who commented on the costs of the repair (on the high side, pricey, can be done for less... whatever) without knowing all the details... and having to perform the repair... or make a living doing repair... fall into the armchair quarterback category, in my opinion. I have a little difficulty with those who second guess someone who may only be trying to make an honest living without knowing all the facts. I know very few millionaire violin repair persons... Only the very top end restorers command anywhere near a BMW mechanic's shop rate... and as David mentioned, not all repair work is created equal. The quality of some work is "worth" more than other work.
The bottom line; The costs may be on the high side, or they may be on the low side. It depends. I haven't seen the fiddle, and don't know the repair person, so I just don't know.
Another fact is, I've installed fittings on a good many violins which cost (cost of parts alone) half of what's being quoted... not that that's what's going on... just to illustrate that there may be a number of simple factors we don't know about.
What we do "know" based on the description of the problem, is that the both lower ribs require shortening, as do the linings. This may also involve dealing with (correcting) some rib distortion, but again, I have no way of knowing. The poster also mentioned difficulties with the saddle (remedy missing in the prescription), need for a new bridge and fittings.
The peg thing... too steep an angle... correcting this may require bushings... but again, from the description provided, we really don't know.
If my exchange rate is correct, $1,200 Aus $ equals about $1,000 US. If the job is performed correctly, doesn't seem like much to me... but there is an "if" in the last sentence.
The question I did have was how $1,200 only turns into $2,000 if a bassbar and top removal is added (based on the costs quoted). Am I math challenged? One reason I mention this is that the problem, as described, sounds as though it will be relatively difficult to correct without removing the top... but I'm not there to see it for myself.
The first, basic, concern is if the violin in question is worth the effort. Don't know what it is (and the description provided leaves me with more questions than answers about what it is), so I can't answer that one. If there isn't a good solid feeling about what the instrument is worth and/or what it is, maybe a second opinion is in order.
There you go. My 2 cents.
Best to all,
Jeffrey
Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey -
I find it strange that you have called people "armchair quarterbacks." I find it a bit drastic, to say the least.
The poster was extremely detailed in her explanation of what the luthier had told her. I could call up four violin shops in Los Angeles right now and get an estimate for said repairs. There is no reason for you to be so cynical, sir.
Jeff, you can listen to the violin. Go to Sharelle's profile and follow it to her Youtube account. There, you will find recordings of the violin. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding.
She seriously needs to consider buying a new instrument, and people aren't edging her in the right direction here.
If the instrument was built as poorly as it has been described, then I must question the validity of repairing such a poorly built specimen. Honestly, this seems like common sense.
As for the money conversion deal, I'm surprised to see how close Australian dollars are to American dollars at the moment. I traveled to Australia about 10 years ago, and the conversion rate was somewhere around 60%.
"Jeffrey, Jeffrey, Jeffrey -
I find it strange that you have called people "armchair quarterbacks." I find it a bit drastic, to say the least."
Hello Luke. The comment was meant to provoke (which I admit;, and it looks like it has), but I don't think it's a drastic statement at all, considering. The statement was made pertaining only to specific reactions to the proposed repair and the cost. I believe very few players really understand the difference between good, average, and bad work, the cost associated with each... and we don't know the repair person's skills (at least I don't, as I don't know him). I do not think it's fair (to any professional) to question the fee quoted without knowing the facts... all the facts... One could adversely effect a persons business, who has not done anything wrong at all.. That's drastic. Do you really think that this viewpoint is strange?
"The poster was extremely detailed in her explanation of what the luthier had told her. I could call up four violin shops in Los Angeles right now and get an estimate for said repairs. There is no reason for you to be so cynical, sir."
Actually, the poster left a couple small-but-important details out, so some imagination was required... but I don't fault her for that. The poster doesn't restore instruments for a living. :-)
You can get a reliable quote on the phone? I wouldn't offer one without actually seeing the problem... and I doubt Tom would either... Distortion isn't properly repaired by just pushing things back together... and the concern for the poster was sound. So, what exactly did she ask the luthier? "What's the least expensive way to fix this?", or "How can you make this violin sound as good as possible?" I don't have the answer...
"Cynical, sir"? S'pose I can be opinionated at times, but I think very few would use the term cynical to describe my character.
"Jeff, you can listen to the violin. Go to Sharelle's profile and follow it to her Youtube account. There, you will find recordings of the violin. The proof, as they say, is in the pudding."
I have now done so. Not terribly impressive sound, but it is a utube... and she's in the learning process, not an accomplished player.
"She seriously needs to consider buying a new instrument, and people aren't edging her in the right direction here.
If the instrument was built as poorly as it has been described, that I must question the validity of repairing such a poorly built specimen. Honestly, this seems like common sense."
I agree with you... The jury's out, but leaning toward guilty regarding the cost/benefit issue... didn't need to see the utube to come up with that... I did mention that if there was concern about the origin and/or value, that she should seek another opinion. The opinion (what she presented) seems strange... but I did get the impression it wasn't much of a fiddle. It very well may not be worth the effort. If so, I did wonder why an accomplished luthier would consider accepting a fiddle like this to work on... but again, that's a judgement that would be unfair without knowing the facts. He may simply be kind hearted and trying to help someone accomplish what they asked of him.
The viability IS the real issue, in my opinion. What any purchaser/owner of any violin should consider, or at least be aware of, is that the value of the instrument, more often than not, dictates the quality and depth of the attention it will receive. It's foolish to put $2,000 into a $1,000 violin (actually, it's probably foolish to put that much into a $3,000 or $4,000 violin)... and good work isn't cheap. It's not hard to run up a bill that size. If there's a problem with an inexpensive fiddle, it may not end up on the bench of the person who could do the best job on it in the first place.
Not that a $1,000 may be more than appropriate for a specific player... just best not to let the romance of the thing carry it farther than the reality... in other words, know what you're buying.
While I did work for a company for quite a while that dealt with all levels, I should explain that I do not work on or sell violins within the category we're discussing (I sell and restore middle to high end instruments for the most part), so my viewpoint may possibly be more "academic" than the opinion that might be voiced by someone who does deal with student instruments... but I don't think quality/skill/competence is merely a price range issue. Things have to work for the purpose intended.
"As for the money conversion deal, I'm surprised to see how close Australian dollars are to American dollars at the moment. I traveled to Australia about 10 years ago, and the conversion rate was somewhere around 60%."
Firstly, thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. I appreciate the perspectives.
As to the luthier/qual;ity of work question - I feel as confident as I can about something that I haven't needed to have experienced directly. Teachers with good instruments have used this gentleman, and he works on 'high end' instruments for many of our top chamber/orchestra players. I too wondered why he would take on cheap instruments - without asking him, y guess is that a guy's gotta eat. I would be dubious that there is enough demand in NSW to be too exclusive - we have one major symphony and a couple of smaller orchestras, no world class soloists who are on the circuit. He's not the only good luthier, so there's choice out there. I think he's good, maybe he's not the best, and the price quoted is similar to one other quote from a luthier who dodn't give me the same information, was a bit too autistic in his interaction.
Quality of the instrument - I have considered what you are saying. The mice on the digital still camera I used for recording was dreadful, and definitely doesn,t give a sense to the sound in the room. But I know how it compares to other instruments I have played. I was willing to proceed, on the basis that I have played other instruments in the price range of 2-3,000 and this one had a more pelasing sound to my ear. So I was willing to spend money to that price point. Luthier made it clear it is my choice, but guarded, and warned also that if the top had to come off, there could be a cascading can of worms that would make it unreasonable to proceed.
As it transpires, the top would have to come off to do the most urgent repair to the ribs, and I have discussed with him the value of doing this work vs putting the money toward another instrument and he feels the latter is a better bet. So I'm off today to play again. Back to the violin shop where I got my 3/4, over to Sydney Strings, and then tomorrow over to Gabor. I have no idea what is on the first two stores, Gabor has a handmade Czech instrument that he selected from a batch of 20 4r so, and some hand made Chinese from Shanghai. I'll play all that is available today and tomorrow and make a decision after that. As I said to Gabor, I'm not emotionally attached as such, and the violin at this point in my playing is not going to be my last. I do want one instrument that will see me through to AMEB Grade 8 exams. I am hovering now round Gr7, so probably another 2-3 years I think, maybe 5.
Jeffrey, I like your contribution. What other info would you have liked to see - not saying I can provide it, I'd just like to know what sort of things you take into consideration.
Thankyou Kym for your offered assistance and information. I will contact via PM if I need to take you up on that offer. I dont' know what will happen after this weekend - may have a new squawkamolin.
"As it transpires, the top would have to come off to do the most urgent repair to the ribs, and I have discussed with him the value of doing this work vs putting the money toward another instrument and he feels the latter is a better bet."
Thought that might end up being the case. Often difficult to work things off the end block with the top attached.
"Jeffrey, I like your contribution. What other info would you have liked to see - not saying I can provide it, I'd just like to know what sort of things you take into consideration."
Thanks Sharelle. I do have a bit of fun on these boards. Nice to know my responses are appreciated.
What you left out, I really didn't expect you to include... as you're not a repair person. I was looking for the remedy for the saddle, had questions about the peg remedy (bushing or no), the extent of the distortion is handy to know, I assume the soundpost had issues, and one question that popped into my mind was "If the lower ribs changed that drastically, what about the other ribs, the plates, the neck projection, etc?"
Good luck with your violin search! Is Charmian Gadd still active with the Aus. Chamber group over there?
Sharelle,
Sounds like you bought a piece of junk on ebay and want to sink a fortune into fixing it. You are throwing money down the toilet.
Snap out of it.
Scott
Sharelle,
Well, you sure have some discussion going here!
Let me throw a little fuel on the fire.
What is your existing commitment to the luthier? have you committed to any of the work? If so, then some of this discussion is too late to have any effect.
If not, it seems there is some question on if you should repair or replace. I'm really surprised that no one asked you if you felt you COULD replace it, or if it has some other value to you (a gift from your mother, perhaps?).
If you are interested in possibly replacing it as opposed to repairing it, you could check and find out what you could find on the market for something close to the cost of the repair you feel you can afford. Many shops will ship you a violin for a test period, or more than one. That way you could compare how you like your existing violin with another that would be comparable in price after the repair. Your luthier may also sell violins; you may ask to check out some violins priced similar to the cost of the repair.
Then, and ONLY then, after you have the data you want to use in your decision, should you make a decision.
Well, or you could decide to repair that one, sell it on e-bay, then buy another one..... or get 1/2 the repairs done, buy a discount fiddle on ebay..... or....
To explain a bit more about repair pricing, and second-guessing an estimate, I wouldn't dream of giving an estimate over the phone for anything more than basic maintenance. The owner gave a good description of what needed to be done, but to a repair person, it's a little like saying "I have a dent in my fender. How much to fix it?" A body shop would need to see the damage to have an idea how much work is involved. If one could actually get estimates over the phone to "fix a dent in a fender", they would be pretty meaningless.
Hi everyone.
I own a an unlabeled violin, maybe a Klingenthal? It sounds wonderful after the repairs. It has a grafted scroll, one piece back.
Is yours from 1987 or 1897?
A couple thoughts came to mind
Tailpieces are usually similar, maybe then your instrument is a smaller size or the bridge is in the wrong place.
If the the bridge were in the wrong place it would then not align with the bass bar or soundpost. Maybe even crack the top...
Re-gluing the seams is in most cases a simple repair, an hour's work and a day to dry the glue. Then a new bridge and soundpost.
The tuning pegs are an afterthought, consider putting tuners on the tailpiece first.
Chinese varnish?!? Or French polish? LOL.
This could be a good time to start doing your own repair and setup work.
So this has been a most unexpected week.
Out of concern that repair was money poorly spent, as per advice here, I have spent a couple of days playing instruments available up to my budget & within an hour and a half drive. Generally uninspired, obviously most in the price range were chinese, not posing as anything else but there you have it. A couple of older german and french one of which did sound good but a bit out of the range. Just not keen on the shop.
Then last night I made another appointment with the luthier to try out the instruments he had, and although I wasn't that sure in the shop I bought home on trial a hand made Chinese unlabeled, and a handmade Jan Kubek 2005. The latter, Gabor said he had chosen of about 20, was prepared to buy 20 if they were any good, but they weren't. I guess that makes me a bit nervous, as the maker might not have a reputation for any consistency. But at least I can feel confident that this and any of the other insttruments I tried are constructed properly. His reflection on the chinese instruemnts is that they are good for what they offer, but that the chinese have a tendency to dress even mediocre work in fancy clothes, they pay a lot of attention to the appearance without necessarily having the same underlying skill in shaping and assembling. Certainly all nice looking instruements (he had 4), and they sounded like violins.
Anyway, with the two at home, I'm getting to like the Jan Kubek a lot. I was put off by its colour (leaning more to golden with orange rather than honey or brown) but I love the grain on the single piece back) but am proud to say I am overcoming my superficiality and listening to the sound. I can hear a huge contrast on the D and G compared to my violin, and now I know how poor it was on that bass register. Lots of sound from this one, and it really moves with the little bit of vibrato I can do. I wasn't so keen on the sound for the first 30 minutes or so, it was better than the others but still not an immediate catch, then I had a break and came back to it and it seemed better. Gabotr had said that it is an old new instrument - made in 2005 but not owned or played. kept tuned, but not opened up, so he expects the sound to improve rapidly as it is played. Is this like a shoe salesperson saying the shoes will stretch when they're tight at first? A slight worry, except that I am hearing it already so perhaps this is so.
Sounding as strong higher up register on the bass side as well, and so far I haven't hit a note that doesn't ring. It would be a further cost over the full on repair to my violin if I go for this one, but thinking sensibly (!), I suspect that even if this maker has a weaker reputation than some others, this would still be a better deal to sell in 10 years time than my violin will be even with its repairs. And there is still the concern about what else might be exposed if the top comes off and the repair is attempted.
The chinese violin has not proved so satisfying to play, I'll give it more time today. Although much better than some other violins in its admittedly cheap price range of 2000, its just not improving in the way the other violin is and doesn't reflect the dynamics as well , plus there isn't a complexity in the sound that I can't describe but can hear.
Oh, I also had the chance to try a bunch of bows, and have brought home my one preferred bow on trial as well. It a german bow, but sadly going to be out my price range I suspect if I go the Kubek violin. Thankfully, the recent ebay purchase bow (one of those yita 5 star bows, that I got very cheap on auction) sounds almost as good, not smooth in the same way and not able to move as quickly, but responsive in dynamics. Bows are even more complicated than violins I reckon - I have tried a huge number over the last year, and am surprised how mundane or unpleasant even expensive for my range (2-3000 dollar) bows are. I rejected them previosuly when all I had was the cheap wood bow that came with my Stentor outfit, because although I could hear some difference, it certainly wasn't thousands of dollars difference.
one bow I had liked a lot was made in china by John Xu, beautiful to look at and sounded very good, and really inexpensive. I'm hoping it hasn't sold, and I'll drop in and play it on this kubek violin while on my way to return it from trial.
Jeffrey - Charmian Gadd recently played the Beethoven VC here, she plays chamber/orch regulalry on the Central Coast. I know she's still at the NSW con as well. I believe she has some link here on the coast. Quite a player. Do you know her?
"Jeffrey - Charmian Gadd recently played the Beethoven VC here, she plays chamber/orch regulalry on the Central Coast. I know she's still at the NSW con as well. I believe she has some link here on the coast. Quite a player. Do you know her?"
Yes, had the pleasure of meeting her a number of years ago and know a few of her musician chums here in the States. Lovely lady and fine player.
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October 1, 2009 at 02:02 AM ·
Have you considered checking with the luthier to see if there were an instrument you could rent while he repairs yours?