Testing Bows

May 16, 2006 at 01:09 AM · Greetings,

Ben, I usually play Mozart 4 , Unaccompanied Bach and something lush like the Glazunov meditation.

Cheers,

Buri

May 16, 2006 at 01:30 AM · Opening of Bruch is good. I just like to listen to long sustained notes, then maybe the last mvt of Bach G-, then Paganini #16 to see how it handles string crossings, or whatever else you might be doing at that time.

Just don't start bouncing the damn thing once you get it. I still have no idea why people use that as their deciding factor... you can bounce a pencil on a violin pretty easily.

May 16, 2006 at 02:41 AM · Hi. I've developed a pretty systematic testing method, but it's too long to get into here. If you'd like to e-mail me, I'll send it to you in a safe attachment.

May 16, 2006 at 03:11 AM · I'm a finesse kind of player with an Auer bowgrip, so I am very specific in what I want in a bow and how I test for it.

Having played probably thousands of bows, I first pick up the bow in my right hand and feel it. I can usually figure out if a bow is going to work before I even play it, which allows me to find good working sticks even when there's no hair.

I prefer bows that I call "gossamer", bows that shimmer with energy even when not being played. That's why I tend to prefer round sticks to octagonal ones, though that's not a hard and fast rule. I'm not one to demand a certain wood, though I tend to go with high grade pernambuco or brazilwood or snakewood. I always prefer a softer bow to a harder one since I have old instruments that don't require a lot of effort to get sound out of.

I always play SONGS when trying instruments. Not only do I play songs, I always play them from beginning to end without stopping. This uncovers issues of balance and weight that don't show themselves when one's merely testing passages. Sometimes a bow can feel great in short spurts but is difficult to wield as a songs drags on and on.

Where the great French bows separate themselves from the lesser bows is in dynamic shading. I always like to play songs that test the bow's ability to start at PP, ramp up to FF, and back down. It's in the MP and MF dynamics that the greatest bows show their superiority, as that requires the perfect balance of hard and soft in the stick.

I've found that for my Auer influenced style, nothing beats an authentic Tourte. I have a snakewood round stick Eugene Sartory and the Tourte was vastly superior in every way. I love my Sartory to death, by the way.

In fact, I'd rather have a Tourte before a Stradivarius! I can use a Tourte to make a well adjusted sweet old violin sound pretty decent, but I can't take a bow that doesn't work for me and make a Stradivarius or Guarnerius get the right dynamic shading.

One cannot underestimate the impact of a great bow on a violinist's ability, particularly on sovereign violinists like Milstein (Strad + Tourte) or Rosand (Guarnerius + Tourte, though he also uses his Kittel).

May 16, 2006 at 04:42 AM · I thought they only make Baroque bows out of snakewood..

It's also strange that for a man that owns a Tourte, that you'd even consider brazilwood... its like a guy with a penchant for Lamborghinis but also likes 1992 Honda Civics...

May 16, 2006 at 05:38 AM · I didn't say that I owned a Tourte, Pieter.

More importantly, you'll notice in Bernard Millant's massive picture archive that snakewood is indeed used by various makers, Sartory being one of them.

I have a Morizot bow made of brazilwood (or maybe is it pernambuco that looks a lot like brazilwood?) that is just awesome to play. I've also played some true brazilwood bows from Chinese companies that were quite good too, though not in the class of the classic French stuff.

The bottom line is that a guy like me is going to like what works for him regardless of the pedigree or what people think.

May 16, 2006 at 07:09 AM · Well I haven't found many people who appreciate brazilwood, pedigree or not. In my experience, it's a secondary grade material. The best chinese bows use pernambuco.

May 16, 2006 at 09:25 AM · 3rd movement of the Faure sonata is an excellent piece to try a bow on. It has fast, awkward notes with lots of string crossings, followed by a very legato passage. I always play some Faure and see how the bow can handle that.

May 17, 2006 at 05:35 AM · I agree with some of the opinions expressed here. pernambuco is better than brazilwood. I can often predict how much I will like a bow by the way it feels when I pick it up. I suppose that's because I get clues on the balance. I have long arms, hands, and fingers, and weak wrists. A good bow for me is one that somehow seems to transform my arm/hand/wrist into something better. (Pardon me for sounding mystic. That's how I feel.) Maybe a bowmaker can give me what God didn't. I start playing open strings, then scales. A bow that sounds good and feels good when I play simple things is worth pursuing further, if it's not too outrageously priced. I test the bow's range of dynamics and see how smoothly I can cresc and decresc. Can I go from 0 mph to 60 mph quickly and smoothly? Can I draw a sound that carries well when my hand is relaxed? (Because my wrist is weak, I tend to press down too hard unless the bow is properly responsive to my hand.) I try the obvious things, such as quality and balance of sound across a wide range of pitch; sustain (I'm a sucker for great sustain); playing legato, staccato, etc.; ease of control and range of sound at tip, middle, and frog; the sweetness and warmth of sound; etc. When I play with a bow that is right for me, I get the sense/feeling that the sound I want comes from deep within me and out of my violin without going through my right hand. I'm amazed at how easily I produce the sound I want. I feel like I'm getting the sound I want by instinct rather than by effort. The three way interaction of bow-violin-violinist is very important. The choice is so very personal. I find it hard to verbalize. I know it's the right bow for me in much the same way that Laurie described playing the Italian violin that was right for her. I'm surprised at what I can do and how easily I can do it.

I'm getting excited about the new bow for you, Ben. Please let us know what you choose and how you know that it's right for you.

May 17, 2006 at 07:44 AM · Here's a site I found once that talks about systematic testing, about halfway down the page. link

Angelo Eftimeo mentioned bow resonance in a recent thread. The last time I was interested in bows, I discovered you can feel some bows "buzzing" in your hand as you play. I think this is a rare enough quality that it isn't talked about much, and I think it adds a particular quality to the sound.

May 17, 2006 at 11:27 AM · Hi,

Pieter, the great makers of the past used a variety of woods - snakewood, amourette, ironwood and pernambuco. Pajeot for example often used amourette. I just acquired a Chinese bow that is an exact copy of a well-known Pajeot, and like the original, they chose to make it from Amourette. I have to say that it is as close to the real thing as I have tried (or more likely, as close as a Pajeot might have felt when it was first made).

Back to the original topic... When I first try a bow, I usually first play a scale, with various bowings. If that works, then I do something like Buri, with a Bach Fugue, Mozart No. 4 and something powerful like the opening of the Brahms Cto and something sustained like the recap in the First mvt of Sibelius (when the theme is on the G string).

Cheers!

May 18, 2006 at 02:29 AM · Jim, I read the article... it reminded me of how I do my experiments at work!

May 20, 2006 at 06:32 PM · Dear Colleagues - I've received several requests for my bow test, and was glad to oblige. To make things more convenient for both myself and others, I've now posted it on my website, http://rkviolin.com under "writings". Eventually, I hope to post my violin test as well. Cheers!

May 23, 2006 at 05:10 AM · I liked David Ormai's comments about testing bows with the 3rd mvt.of the Faure Sonata. And, after pondering this a minute, I concluded that passages from the entire sonata could well be part of the perfect testing ground for a bow: The intense and lyrical opening of the first mvt. will show you how well it grips the string; the second mvt. is all about color and range of expression; the third mvt. covers the issues of clarity and string crossing; and the coda of the last mvt. will tell you plenty about the bow's off-the-string capabilities. The last time I played this piece I used my Simon, and it was quite responsive to all the challenges I just mentioned.

May 23, 2006 at 06:36 AM · When I was in Cremona this summer I tried bows from Lucchi and my teacher had one for about 6 months. I remember two of the main things he said about a bow working on a violin are that the harmonics will ring and be produced more easily with a bow that matches and also that the resulting tone of a double stop (thirds) will be strongest with a bow that matches the instrument best. There were other things and maybe I'll post when I remember them.

I like to play parts of the Paganini Concerto in D and slow down the thirds scales and tenths and listen to how the instrument rings out. You also might have to play quieter to really hear a good resulting tone. There are also harmonics to try out in the piece.

Someone said that you can make any bow bounce well and not to even test for it, but if I'm going to pay a lot for a bow I want it to match my style and be easy to use as well as produce a great tone. Paganini has flying spicatto and richochet as well as some great string crossing sections so thats another reason I like it.

I also play solo Bach and maybe something a little more dark and dramatic than the Paganini (maybe Bruch or Brahms). I like playing the Sibelius second movement too.

Forgot to add second movement of Brahms D min sonata- great for tone, g string, thirds and resulting tones, and whole dynamic range. I also like to do something crazy like Tzigane once I narrow it down to a couple bows.

May 23, 2006 at 12:54 PM · Brian R touches on an important point here.

Every one of the techniques he was talking about are those that involve high level violin tricks. Each one of those are extremely difficult to do in their own right and demand much from the bow. A bow had better be pretty good to do all that stuff, just like a violinist like Brian R has to be pretty good if he can do that stuff at all

That said, there are bows at cheap prices that do exactly that. However, the tone quality that one is looking for may not be as great as that of an expensive bow (though I actually have seen the reverse too).

May 23, 2006 at 05:44 PM · ...but isn't tone a relative thing? The bow I wound up buying recently is not as warm as I would like it to be in first position, but is quite clear in higher positions. The bows I preferred in first position got murky by about 3rd or 4th position. Perhaps if given a higher budget I would have found something satisfactory across the (finger) board.

May 23, 2006 at 07:05 PM · It's important to make sure your violin is adjusted perfectly before you look for or buy a bow. Perhaps your violin can now be adjusted to make it sound as warm in first position as it sounds in the higher positions, or maybe it can be adjusted to sound more clear in the higher positions.

Also you might want to try different strings now that you have a new bow. Dominants give me a warmer tone in the lower positions but lose clarity in the higher ones on my violin, whereas Evah Pirazzi give me a clear powerful tone everywhere and lose just a little bit of warmth in the lower positions. The loss of "warth" (and clarity to a lesser extent) can just be how it sounds right under your ear. You need someone else to listen from the middle to back of a hall to get an honest judgement.

May 23, 2006 at 08:40 PM · Brian,

you're right, I should see if an adjustment is in order. After years of trying different strings (including Evahs) I'm stuck on Dominants again...I like the response and the price.

April 3, 2008 at 04:37 PM · Is there anyway you can tell how much a bow is worth just by looking at it?

I have an unlabeled bow,with goldfish Parisian eye,gold-mounted,ivory tip,the wood seem to be pernambuco(I'm not sure),and it is in perfect shape.

How much do you think my bow worth?

April 4, 2008 at 02:19 AM · ONe of my lecturers gave us a number of things that luthiers/valuers look for in assessing a bow, including quality of the stick, tip, frog, screw and a number of other things. He basically gave us a guide of things to look for when buying a bow. However, knowing what to look for will not help you find a price for the bow. While a luthier or valuer will look at those same things, they will also be looking at prices of recent sales of similar bows, what they have sold similar bows for and such things. So while yes, a luthier will be able to gell the value of a bow just by looking at it, there's a number of different factors as well that they take into consideration

April 4, 2008 at 01:22 PM · Hold the bow, and if the balance is excellent and perfectly suits your hand, then draw 4 long slow-ish bow strokes on the G-string — open G, A1, B2 & C3 (NO VIB).

The bow must be totally stable and pliable, the sound rich, smooth and clear, you must not be able to detect a week spot or a stiff resistant spot. Flex in and out of the sound — the bow must be instant with your touch.

You will have a sense of fusion with the bow and the string — it is amazing.

If it passes all of these, then it is worth trying all of the above.