I hate Bachs concerto for 2 violins
I am in the fourth suziki book, and am almost on Bach's violin concerto for 2 violins. I have been listening to it over and over, and playing it, and I dislike it very much. Does anyone know of a good replacement for it? I assume that by putting that song in there, they are trying to teach fluency in the 3rd position, as well as, i guess, teaching you to play with lots of accidentals, but I acnt seem to like that song. Anyone know of a good piece for me to suggest to my teacher as a replacement?
Replies (47)
I agree; this is one you MUST learn. You are the first person I've ever heard say they didn't like it. This piece ranks in my top 5...
You should definatley just suck it up take learn it. Look for some nice qualities in it. I personally loved learning it! Just my opinion.
Good luck!
You really need to learn this piece.
Why do you dislike it? One of my teachers had the philosophy that if a student didn't like a piece, it was probably because they couldn't play it. Slow it down quite a bit, get every note in tune and work out the bowdivision - smoothing the changes between slurs and separate notes. Understand the articulation. The piece won't take that long to learn - a couple of months at most, then you will go on to Book 5. The Vivaldi G min is a really neat piece. Meanwhile, trust your teacher and learn what he/she is trying to teach you.
I find that Bach takes a lot of musical maturity to appreciate, especially by younger violinists. I remember when I played Bach A Minor and sped through it, without really appreciating the style, cadence and ... genius behind it. In many respects, Bach is harder than Paganini, and although technique certainly isn't one of those ways, it definitely takes a maturity to play well. Also, the fact that it's a double concerto should be exciting - it's an art in itself to play well with someone else. So yes, stick with it, and instead of finding reasons to dislike it, find reasons to appreciate it. You'll play a lot better in the long run, and have one of the best pieces in the repertoire under your belt.
Vivaldi a minor double. Better piece maybe, more fun to play. Everybody has played the Bach, so you're more likely to get asked to play the Bach.
So Luke hates the Bach double. He must have very high standards. Brahm's double is probably better (though a bit harder).
I think you need to take a course in music appreciation.
The Bach Double Concerto (concerto, not song, please) is one of my favorite pieces of music. I can never get enough of it. Try to figure out why you don't like it. Maybe that will lead you to an area that you need to focus on. When this concerto is played well, it is impossible to dislike it.
I used to not like the bach double very much either but now I love it~! First, have you played it with other people yet? Putting duets together is the fun part! Also, try learning both parts then you will have an appreciation for how well they fit together. Last, you should listen to different recordings of it (not just the standard Suzuki stuff) then you will hear all three movements and how many different interpertations there are.
A piece is what you make it~ if it's boring stop playing it boringly! There is so much you can do with it like dynamics, tone color, and phrasing. Have fun with it~ good luck!
How could anyone not like the Bach Double? That's the exact piece that inspired me when I was younger to keep playing and learning until the day I can play that concerto at performance level (getting there...)
That's right, it's standard repertoire and it's also a gateway, IMO, to other more complex works of Bach's. Try to find out way you don't like it but I would just learn it if I were you. Believe me, you will find something interesting and eye-opening once you put the whole "I don't like it" aspect behind.
Good luck!
I cannot imagine how anyone who loves classical music or anyone studying or playing the violin in any genre cannot love the Bach Double. That being said, let's assume you hate it. There are still good reasons to learn it:
1. Everybody plays it. You will indeed be asked to play it somewhere along the line.
2. It can teach you the balance between being a soloist and being part of an ensemble.
3. It can teach you, almost better than any other single piece of music, how to blend your playing with that of another violinist - an equal in every sense.
4. The 2nd movement is as "romantic" as anything ever written in the Romantic Era. If "song" is a bad word on this website, then so be it. It is a "song" in the truest and best sense of the term, and to the extent that you need to learn to "sing" with your fiddle, this movement will teach that like no other.
Now, get out there and start playing the Bach Double.
Cordially, Sandy
Some thoughts about the option one has (or hasn't). Before one likes or dislikes a piece one should reflect first if one is capable at all to judge a piece. Some people always tend to think in categories "like" and "dislike" even when having no idea what's going on. Sometimes it's best not to consider oneself to be a judge but a learner. The more open one is the more one can learn and may be much later play the judge.
FMF
I don't see why you don't like it. I loved it imediately the first time I heard it... It wasn't until I heard it horribly played one too many times, that the first movement began to annoy me.
The second movement (Not in Suzuki, I belive) brings tears to my eyes every time I hear it. Even just thinking about it will make me shudder. *shiver*
Years ago, I felt that Bach too simple and easy and I often critized him for not knowing anything more difficult that an sixteenth note, rhythm wise and told myself that Bach was so plain and shallow. It wasn't until I turned 11, that I took out that ol' Bach recording and *shiver*, I found out the exact opposite was true. To play Bach well, is indeed a very difficult task.
I assure you. You will love it. Besides, standard repertorie must be learned. ;)
Just avoid listen to the version of Kreisler,
Zimbalist and a string quartet.It's a little too
old. Well, after all, it was the very first
recorded.
Okay...time for a change in opinion...I played this piece for the first time in high school Honors Orchestra my sophomore year...not a Suzuki student!
I loved the piece, it was easy to play, and I was glad I didn't have to learn to play the solo interludes as a second violinist.
Then one year my parents got me all the Suzuki books through 10 except 7 (it wasn't available).
I saw the piece in the books 4 and 5 and immediately began playing them....
Then I realized these were the two solo parts...when I arrived at the solo sections, I totally freaked out. I can almost play those parts really slowly...I'm not a good string-crosser when it comes to that sort of stuff. I have the same problem with the storm section of the first movement of Vivaldi's Spring...but at least I can play that part at half the tempo! This Double Concerto for Two Violins and a String Orchestra just drives me nuts to try to play the solo sections!
And it makes me sick to hear little ten-year-olds who can play it but can't sightread...one of the most important skills you can learn...
You probably are frustrated because it is the hardest piece by far that you have played in the Suzuki books. If there are any deficiencies in your technique they will show up here. Lots of slow practice on the difficult sections. Don't forget to practice the shifting exercizes in the beginning of the book. Practice D minor and C minor scales in 2nd and 3rd position. Two octaves is enough, assuming you might have gone to three octave scales although it is early for that.
Listen to the recording. You can get a midi disc and slow it down so that it is easier.
Good luck.
Actually I found books 9 and 10 far harder.
La Folia (book 6 or 8?) is one of my favorites and I can almost play it.
I loved the bach double! I played both solo parts for the first movement. I believe it really helped my technique, and I love how the two parts fit together so well. I remember it was harder than anything I played, but if you play it slowly for about a week, you can get it up to tempo much faster.
Wow, all the excellant response & analysis of the Bach Double especially by Sun. Ironically, just came back from my son's lesson/rehersal.They will be performing it in the coming concert. I've heard my son practice both first & second violin a few hundred times & never get tired of listening to it. And also can't see how anybody doesn't like Bach's music, it always has this sacredness in his music that is so different from any other composers.
Greetings,
I`m having a fascinating experience with this piece (as opposed to song) at the moment. I have the classic recording with Oistrakh one and two plus Vivaldi Double and find myself surprising;y ambivalent about the performance. From a violinistic angle the master of bow control and sound and the like is wonderful- a real pleasure.
However, I find my overall response is to become slifghtly jaded by the perfromance. I think I recenly spent so much time listening to Manze and Podger that it wa s hard to tolerate the broad , romantic performance which is so justifiably famous. I wa sinterested to find that after repeated listening my ears seemed to shift back to that way of doing things .
Does anyone else fidn this happens to them?
Cheers,
Buri
I believe there is a viable alternative to the Bach Double - the Malcolm Arnold Double. I got the music to this years ago and have never played it, but it looks an incredible piece and would surely supplant the Bach in the repertoire if given half a chance. I heartily recommend it to anyone disillusioned with the Bach.
*hysterics* You *sob, sob* don't like the Bach Double Concerto? *tear, tear* How can you not like it??! *sniff*
Aw, come on, just try to like it for me...before I get this whole page messy. ;)
Actually, it's really beautiful, especially the second movement. And the third movement is really cool because if you're both exactly together, there are some parts where each of you have three notes slurred and five (I think) notes not slurred...if you both articulate it exactly the same way, it is. in. cred. i. ble. Really!! I know this because I recorded the first violin part on my MP3 player, and then played the second violin part while I listened to it. Since I am (obviously) consistant with my bowing articulation, it sounded AWESOME...so, anyway, try to like it. (Although, some of the other suggestions up there sound cool, too!)
Stephen,
Yep, you're not the only one whose ear's has been, let's say, "transformed" to the more baroque style. I used to like Oistrakh's recording, as well as recordings played on modern instruments. However, after listening to Manze and Podger, I was hooked on that style and listened to it day in day out for about a year! Now I only prefer baroque pieces to be performed on period instruments (which can be a problem when everyone prefers it on modern violins...)
ehh. you'll get over it. great playing is great playing no matter what period it's done in.
I agree...you are the only person who I've heard that says they don't like the Bach Double. That piece will be with me forever! I LOVE THE BACH DOUBLE! It will rank as my #1 favorite song as long as I live...
Dean
Greetings,
does this mean you will be resurrecting this post for the next ninety years?
Cheers,
Buri
Much as I have always LOVED the Bach double, I think it really has to be okay for someone else to dislike it. There was a time when I hated Beethoven's Fifth, because I had listened to it a few hundred times too many. There are some pieces that I'm sure 'every classical musician' loves, that I don't like at all. My daughter can't stand anything by Rachmaninoff.
Well you get the idea, taste is taste, liking and disliking are personal responses, and each is entitled to his/her own.
It may be valuable to learn the piece despite disliking it, but it may also turn out to be injurious to one's relationship to the discipline of music, turning it into a chore rather than a passion. That is a balancing act for the teacher and student to work out. Let the teacher know you might prefer another piece.
I had a teacher who tried to get me to play the Meditation from Thais when I was sixteen. I hated the piece, and didn't continue with that teacher. I really enjoy the piece now, but my teacher's uncompromising offering of it was one factor among many that set my learning back for many years.
In other words, it's not so simple.
In response to Buri...
I'm 17, so only for about the next 70-some years.
Dean
Luke--learn it for me--then when I get to it it will be easier. I love that piece. A little story:
I also love the little Boccherini Minuet at the end of number 2, but to date haven't gotten it really sounding the way I need to yet. Sooooo, just do it. I find also that once I've made myself learn one of them I don't like very well, I end up liking it later down the road.
If I could, I'd get myself a T-shirt with the words "I LOVE THE BACH DOUBLE" in big bold letters on the front. Although I'm worried I might get weird looks from people who don't know what that is and mistake it for -eherm- something else...
Anyway, on a serious note, I agree that it's all a matter of personal taste. If you don't like a particular piece, then don't play it just yet.
You should ask your teacher what he expects you to achieve in terms of style and basic skills from the Bach Double. Then, politely ask for alternative pieces that could teach you the same stuff.
Maybe some other Baroque pieces would do the trick :-)
I hate the piece too. But you must do what your teacher says because the teacher is a kind of living God, much like the Japanese Emperor, or that dictator of Turkmenistan.
Greetings,
hate is such a relative term. I`ve heard of people who hate prunes. It`s hard to believe I know. Probably somekind of psychosis.
Cheers,
Buri
Very true. I often heard girls say they hate so and so, but then you turned around and you find they are completely crazing about them. I believe there has been study done on this phenomenon. In fashion, for instance, certain initial aversion towards a particular color or style may just be the reason for the same people later to actively seek for this color and style to wear.
Hiya! I'm sure this has already been mentioned somewhere up top, but I have a student who at first, like you, DESPISED learning this piece and the Vivaldi Concerto in a. Well, since I've been taking lessons in authentic Baroque style for a while, I taught her to play the Bach "Double" this way, and she's really taken to the whole delicacy of the style (and the different fingerings - essentially no third position!). I've got her hooked, it opened her eyes (and ears) to whole new possibilities and perspectives, and she plays both pieces (Bach and Vivaldi) just beautifully! :)
I'd like to echo what Paul Cook says. Being told you "have to" play something and, what's more, have to like it, can be really alienating.
Okay, I also love the Bach Double, but I had a similar experience when I was a teenager with the music of Fritz Kreisler. My teacher loved Kreisler and kept giving me music by Kreisler to play: Sicilienne and Rigaudon, Praeludium and Allegro, Liebeslied, Liebesfreud, by the time we got to Schoen Rosmarin I was really ready to throw in the towel with Kreisler. I started to feel alienated and disconnected from my teacher. Finally, at one point, I asked him "is there any piece of violin music you don't like?" He was really brought up short by the question, but finally admitted that he disliked Humoresque. Couldn't stand it. Wouldn't make a student play it. Well, I liked Humoresque, and told him so. I also finally admitted to him that I didn't like Schoen Rosmarin, or Kreisler, that much. It made me feel better about my teacher, and about myself. Being able to agree to disagree, rather than either of us making some kind of moral issue out of our favorite pieces was kind of a bonding moment.
At this point I haven't played (or wanted to play) anything by Kreisler in 25 years. (And now that I play the viola, I'm probably safe).
I'm not proud of that attitude, or record, with Kreisler, and it's really only been since I started on v.com last year and read more about Kreisler as a violinist and where he fits into the history of violin playing and composing that I've started to have any appreciation for him. I even dusted off P&A a few weeks ago after reading Yixi's description of it. It's still too hard for me, but I'm no longer intimidated by it. I can actually imagine wanting to play Kreisler again . . .
I think that it's reasonable to "not like" a piece, even an old warhorse that "everyone has to like," for a while and request that it be put away. Having to stifle your dislike and "suck it up" makes something hard and bitter grow inside--which, as a violinist, you don't need. While the piece is away, learn something about the composer and how s/he fits into the broader history of your instrument. I think that can really make all the difference.
While I do sense the tongue-in-cheek irony of Scott's comment above, it must be stressed that one doesn't have to do what the teacher says just because "the teacher is a kind of God" &c.
While one must always respect and open his/her mind to the methods of his/her mentor, blind obedience can be a disastrous thing.
Two-way communication is always a must.
And hate is a relative term :-)
I like listening to it, but those solo sections sure are difficult. A year after the original post, and I still can't play it. It's mostly the parts in second position that are driving me nuts. Third, I can do that with my eyes closed and my hands rubberbanded together behind my back. Okay...well, not really, but you get the idea...
Ok, it has all been said, but as a Suzuki student the BII is a real watermark.
Maybe you just feel pressure and need to pick up a few different recordings or the international arrangement to give it fresh new feeling.
The Suzuki recordings get stuffed into your brain after all that listening. At your level you might consider listening to 3-5 recordings of pieces to realize that Suzuki recordings are only one way of looking at a piece. I recently say a 1950s video from the Bell Telephone hour with two of the greats playing it.
It was so different than the Nadia version that it really opened my eyes. There is no one exact way to play it. Get a new way to look and listen to it and then by all means stay open to like it.
Times change, people change, versions change.
In my opinion, the second part is more difficult for students than the first part - more 2nd position.
Luke, in your profile you have listed that you want to teach the violin. Every teacher on this discussion board has taught, is teaching, and is preparing to teach the Bach Double right now. It is a great benefit to know what you teach.
Great memories with this work. Performed it with my first real girlfriend in high school.
This is my next piece, once I get the Vivaldi 3rd movement together. I find myself highly motivated with the Vivaldi because if it. I can't wait to play the Bach double. :) :)
I LOVE VIVALDI!!! He wrote the best baroque music of all time, by the way...rates right up there with Tchaikowsky, Copland, Williams, Zimmer, and Newton...
LOL...I guess I'm speaking from the perspective of a NON-Suzuki student. I haven't heard Dr. Suzuki's recording of the song (nor do I really have any desire to; the book 2 cassette that I have didn't impress me much). I played the second violin part in orchestra under the title "Double" Concerto for Two Violins and a String Orchestra. I got to sit back and listen during the two or three parts where the soloists (is duoists a word?) played the fast, complex stuff. It was pretty fascinating, and I have a recording of the orchestra playing it. I love listening to the tune, and it really helps me when I'm trying to play the solo parts (on both the first and second soloist parts). Although I can't play it up to the same tempo anymore straight from memory (it's been four years), I enjoy playing what I remember along with it. However, when I play the solo parts, I have to slow WAY down...
By the way, if anyone is looking for a good recording, too bad. I have the best one there is, the EVSC High School Honors Orchestra of 2003.
It's a complex piece and the Suzuki disc in particular doesn't do that good a job of highlighting the musical conversation that's going on between the two violins. I didn't really enjoy the piece -- at least not as much as I enjoy other Bach like the Partitas -- until I listened to a couple of other recordings.
Ed
Greetings,
growing up (a procedure I am successfully reversing) I listened mainly to Szigeti/Flesch and the two Oistrakhs. Both classics and astonishingly beautiful However, after havign listened to the Manzer , Podger (?) version I hae a greta deal of difficulty in getting back to these earlier versions. Usually I can compartmnetalize music and enjoy differnet perfomances for the qualities they display in their own right but I do feel that in soem ways this piece didn`t come into its own until it began to get played with the incredible energy and lighness it deserves.
Cheers,
Buri
You sure it's not a phase thing? I've learned a lot from Podger's Bach S&P, but I still love Szigeti's version very much. I particularly like his Hubay school vibrato that everyone hates. I wish I could do that.
Greetings,
its the Oistrakh recording I struggle with ambivalence the most. Szigeti won`t ever be a dated violinst to me. I also heard a beautiful version by Kreisler and Zimbalist I think.
Manze is extraordinary.
Cheers,
Buri
I just ordered couple of Menze's CDs and look forward to it. Thanks for the recommendation.
The Bach double is a beautiful piece, but probably very hard when you aproach it as a student. I remember my daughter was 9-10 yo when she studied it and one lesson the teacher spent the full hour working on the first staff!!! It was kind of a "make or brake" piece for her, certainly a milestone. In the beggining, I guess because it was hard for her, she didn't really enjoy it, but in the end she trully appreciated the beauty of it. Her technique also improved a lot. So, good luck.
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February 26, 2006 at 12:14 AM · My opinion, seriously, is suck it up and learn it. It's standard repertoire anyway. We've all had to learn pieces we didn't like... doesn't mean you won't get something valuable out of it.