Double jointed thumb trouble with bow hold

January 24, 2006 at 10:39 PM · Double jointed is a misnomer (obviously), but rather it describes what can be best termed as lazy joints. It's a matter of strengthening the fingers. My pinky fingers used to collapse all the time and I just applied myself, putting mind over matter, and refused to let them collapse and eventually they got stronger and I don't even have to think about it any more.

Preston

January 24, 2006 at 10:46 PM · Her thumb should be curved enough that hyper-extending isn't a problem. I have double-jointed thumbs (at the base) and fingers (to a smaller extent). My problem is my fourth finger on my left hand - since it is pretty extended to begin with, it collapses. Whereas with your right thumb, the joint should be pretty bent (you could even bend it 90 degrees, just to get the feel of it), so it's easier to hold without hyper-extending.

The bow hold should be very relaxed in general.

She could try doing some exercises to strengthen her muscles around the hypermobile joint. Things like squeezing a stress-ball.

January 24, 2006 at 10:53 PM · Greetings,

the thumb doesn@t actually `grip` the bow at all.

It`s purpuse is to provide counter-pressure to whatever is being exerted downwards. Thus the uppward force ranges from virtually nonexistent at the heel (where one actually has to lift the bow weight bercause it is too heavy for the strings) to a lot at the point where the firts and second fingers are injecting a great deal of weight into the string via the bow.

We can only say that the thumb is in a permanent state of change concerning both degree of contact and degree of bend. The thumb is very bent at the heel and straightens progresisvley as one goes down the bow.

In order to imprve the relationship between the fingers, thumb and bow, thefollowinf exercises are importnat.

Spider on the stick- -hold the bow vertical and use the fingers and thumb to allow the bow to move downwards and then back up again retaing somehting like a bow hold.

See saw^- hold the bow in the middle, parallel to the floow. use the thumb as the relaxed pivit of the see saw. Then the first and fourth fingers straighten and bend alternatley to see saw the bow. the hand and arm do not move.Gradually work this exercise closer and closer to the regular hold at the heel where it is extremely strenuous.

Raising and lowering the bow using only the finger. Hold the bow about 2 cm above the string. Use opnly fingers to place the bow on the stringa nd then raise it,

ONext place the bow on the string just below the middle. Rotae the forarm inward so that the hand is tilted towards the violin. Do the same finger action as the previous exercises. because of the slant this will make a short bow stroke on the string. make sure the thumb opens and close swith the fingers when you do this exercises.

Scales in the lower half.

Plag a half note in a low tempo from the heel to the middle. Replace the bow at the heel and stop. look at your thumb and the space between it and the hand. Is it nicely curved and not pressing the stick. If not, corect it. Play the next nnote of the scale in the same way. Then the next. Inessence it is the slow development of mentla control of the problem which will resolve it in the long run.

Cheers,

Buri

January 24, 2006 at 11:49 PM · The thumb needs to be very relaxed. I've dropped my bow a couple times during lessons and my teacher says "That's good, that means you're not 'holding' it." She should try bending her fingers lower and that will force the thumb to be bent more. A very good example of this is Zukerman if you have any videos. Also, there are some videos of masterclasses of his online. Basically, if the fingers aren't bent enough, the thumb won't be either which might be okay but in your daughter's case because she's double jointed the thumb doesn't stay bent.

January 25, 2006 at 12:25 AM · Double jointedness has nothing to do with it, I have double jointed thumbs (I can bend them backwards 180 degrees the way they're NOT supposed to go. It freaks my friends out ^__^)

If her thumb is collapsing at the base, she's probably exherting force the wrong way. The only way I can make my thumb collapse is if I grip the bow incredibly tightly and pull UP on my thumb instead of just counteracting the downwards force of my other fingers (btw. when I tried this it did hurt a little)

If the thumb is collapsing in the middle (which seems more likely) then she's not curving the thumb enough, AND she's exherting force the wrong way.

In any case, the frustration won't go away unless she makes a focused effort to fix this. You should ask her teacher specifically for help on this problem. A good exercies for strengthening the fingers and loosening the bow hold is to have the student "crawl" up the bow with their bow hold (they have to keep a bow hold the whole time) and then crawl back down. I wonder if this mightn't help.

January 25, 2006 at 01:11 AM · Greetings,

apparently Joseph doesn`t read my posts. Who can blame him?

Cheers,

Buri

January 25, 2006 at 05:01 AM · As mentionede already, double jointed is a misnomer. think of it as soft joints - the ligaments and tendons supporting the joint and limiting its range allow more movement than 'normal'. its unlikely that only the base of the thumb is affected, so your daughters bow hold could be affected at the base of all the finger joints. the exercises described already are great if they are practised with the joints in the correct positon, but they can be accomplished with hyperextension/collapsed joints as well, so won't help in that case.

Your daughter needs to get the feel of correct hand positions. The brain learns this well when it works against resistance - make a plasticine, playdough or therapy putty 'bow' that the fingers/thumb press into while they are in position. even she or you pushing in on the joints in position will provide that resistance.

and the situation won't resolve overnight.

goodluck.

January 25, 2006 at 06:35 AM · bah, don't I feel foolish. I read it but I missed spider on a stick since it was jammed between all the other text ^^U

January 25, 2006 at 12:33 PM · Thanks for the input and exercise descriptions. We discovered the Univ. of Vermont has a website with lots of pictures and points as well, so hopefully she'll remedy it. I especially the point made that she shouldn't be holding the bow too tightly...I would guess this is her biggest problem. I'm thinking she could also use a lighter bow?

January 25, 2006 at 04:13 PM · The play-dough bow is an interesting idea -- but the goal should be to make less and less of a mark in it with the fingers and thumb. Maybe, coat a pencil with putty for rigidity, and hold it so that at rest, you make no marks in the putty at all.

When you're holding and playing with the bow, someone should be able to just grab the stick right out of your hand with virtually no resistance from you.

January 25, 2006 at 11:12 PM · Greetings,

what Patty says above is a reflection of one school of thought on bowing so I am not going to say it is wrong. But I do hold a different view.

Firstly, one way to think about the bow is firmnes sof hold and utter relaxtion of the arm.

The meaning of this, in my opinion, is concerned with the `quality` of the contact with the stick by the fingertips. It is not a `grip` but gluey in the way a baby is not at all tense when they wrap their fist around your thumb, but pulling it free is actually extremely difficult.

Thus one should be able to hold the bow with this gluey feeling, parallel to the floor and have one grasp the point and pull it. It should not- come out of the hand by any means. rather, the hand joints and wrist are sufficiently soft that they react by either strsaightening as they would on an up bow. Or, if you are push it , the n the joints should react by collapsing.

Working on this may also be a worthehile exercises. This approach is also discussed by Primrose in Menuhin`s book on the violin and viola.

To strengthen the fingers in general one of the4 best exercises of all is well known in the field of physiotherapy.

Have your daughter take a sheet of newspaper and crumble itup into a ball using only the fingers. You can use progressively more paper as she gets stronger.

Actually I commend this exercise to all beginner violnists,

Cheers,

Buri

January 26, 2006 at 03:33 AM · Definitely try everyone else's ideas first, but as a last resort, here's what I do: I have a medical condition that results in extremely hypermobile joints (all of them). Even without any pressure (I'd venture to guess your daughter is exerting too much pressure against the bow), the weight of the bow causes my joint to collapse. Strengthening wasn't an option. I get around this obstacle by changing the angle of my thumb. By rotating it so that the nail is straight up and down--completely perpendicular to the floor--and the relaxed, curved first joint is pointing directly at the tip of the bow, the collapsing joint moves "side to side" instead of "up and down" like gravity. Rather than the bow resting on the "fingerpad" area, it rests on the side of my thumb just beyond where skin meets the long, flat edge of the nail. (Yes, I hold my bow on the side of my thumbnail...) I hope that description was clear enough to make some sense of. It's a bit odd, but I find it completely functional. They keep granting me college degrees, so it must be working. :-) I feel the pressing need to reiterate: TRY ANYTHING/EVERYTHING ELSE before resorting to modifying and/or deviating from standard technique!!!

'Erie (-: