The thumb and the bow
Hello
My question concerns the thumb's grip upon the bow. The reason I am asking is because I have moved my thumb around to several locations in an effort to give me a more secure hold upon the bow but have been unable to find that perfect spot. In the past I actually placed my thumb in the "crook" of the frog and this would lead to my thumb slipping and actually sliding through to the opposite side of the stick eliminating all counterpressure that it is supposed to give. My teacher says that I should not be placing the thumb in the "crook" but on the ridge of the frog (she places hers on the "northeast" corner of the ridge). This to me doesn't seem to eliminate all problems of comfort and security.
In the pedagogy books, three bow holds are mentioned:
Old German, Franco-Belgian and Russian. Carl Flesch's book recommends the Russian and this to me seems best (for the other fingers at least) and is what I would like to learn. He says the thumb should be placed "half on the edge of the frog and half on the stick" to give the most secure grip. This leaves me with the question as to whether the thumb is on the "side of the frog/stick (in the same plane as the eye of the frog is located) or "beneath" the stick? In Robert Gerle's book on bowing practice he says that the thumb should be place in between the ridge of the frog and the leather grip ,with about 1/4 inch between frog and grip to allow the thumb to contact both at the same time.
What has been your experience regarding the best place to place the thumb?
Have you ever had trouble with the thumb slipping through to the other side of the stick (the side the fingers are on)?
Should any part of the thumb protrude to the "fingers side" of the stick?
Sorry for the myriad of questions but,
Thanks in advance
Kevin
Replies (14)
My thumb goes between the frog and the leather grip (it tends to wear down the leather on the edge over time). Definitely your thumb should not go under and past the stick. The tip of my thumb is placed against the stick.
Greetings,
you can find perfect photos of what do and not to do in Fischers new book `Practice@.
It soiunds like you might have some problems with the actual thumb leather though. It should give adequar\te support that the top right hand corner of the thumb canrest comfrotabley between the leather and the frog, touching the part of the frog nearest the leather.
Cheers,
Buri
I used to hold the bow with the thumb partly touching the frog but my teacher said to try with the thumb only on the stick and not touching the frog. I tried this and it is more comfortable. The placement of your hold should not be dependent on the frog, since every frog is different and because it is in a different spot depending on the tension of the bow. Try holding the bow way further down and play and you'll see that it is more stable and it doesn't bounce around. That is also why I like to keep my hand just a little past the frog. Before, I would have trouble with the bow bouncing. Also, the thumb shouldn't be under the frog but on the side and should be relaxed. This really helps keep the bow hair flat which not a lot of people do but makes the sound a whole lot better. It's really hard to change the habit but very worth it.
Here's what I've been taught: Let your right hand hang loose (ok surfer jargin). Hold out your arm with the palm facing down and just let your hand relax, then with your other hand, take the bow and place it under your bowing hand so that the thumb is in between the frog and the leather- the little bit of wood in-between. The thumb should be curved slightly, but not flat. Your middle finger should make a sort of an "O" with the thumb. All the other fingers just rest in place. Resist the urge to flatten and stiffen your pinky to keep balance.
Been working on this alot myself recently. I do recommend also watching professionals and study their holds - everyone is a bit different. I've seem some strange holds with professionals - even as far as holding the bow above the metal windings for a certain style of playing....
I do what the above poster recommended. Also, one way I relax my thumb is to think of it as a fragile egg shell and not press on it.
Why do they call it a thumb pad? It's wide enough to
accomodate even a large thumb; it's soft and cushy
for a thumb to rest on; being pliable, over time
it would mold to the shape of a thumb; it provides
a place for a thumb to be a constant distance from
the bow tip, regardless of bow tension; and it would
provide some protection for the bow stick from
erosion and abrasion. That's all consistant with
the name. But before rushing to any conclusions
about where to rest your thumb, consider further.
If we all jam our thumbs between the end of this
soft pad and against the edge of the frog - even
though it's shape doesn't appear to be designed
to accept a thumb either comfortably or securely,
we obtain several, not-so-intuitive benefits:
it's uncomfortable so we won't fall asleep during
largo movements; it'll feel slightly but refreshingly
different, depending on bow tension which changes
the width of the channel; it will prove that we play
a lot when the exposed area on your bow stick turns
dark and starts to rot. But best of all, it'll keep
our thumb pads from getting worn out!
And as if that weren't enough, the whole world
couldn't be wrong, could they?
I rest my case.
So let's get real and stop calling it a thumb pad;
I suggest "thumb stop". Whose with me?
R. Shaylor syslabs@teleport.com
Greetings,
its actually called a thumb leather.
In violin playing there is usually a good reason why most people do things one way and not another, in this case play with the thumb resting on the leather and touching the frog. It is up to the beggginer to sort out which is normal for good reasons and whihc is a somewhat unusual quirk which works for a minority of individuals who express the belief they are correct through flippancy.
Cheers,
Buri
The perfect position of the thumb on the bow is
1) the closest possible to the nasetto (I don't know the name in english of the edge part of the frog) but absolutely!! (as someone reported before!!)without touching it
The more the hold is close to the frog the louder is the sound.
2) the contact point is the right part of the fingertip close to the nail.
3)obviously a good grip comes from the right postion of the other fingers, not only the thumb, which gives a perfect grip of the bow avoiding the nasty adjustments of this while playing.
Everyone has different hands and fingers so everyone should find his own right equilibrium of the positions (we talk about distances less than cm).
4) the position is correct when you can articulate the fingers, like closing and opening the hand by bending all the fingers thumb included, infinitely without need of adjustments. This is one of the most important movement (as more passive as possible as reported in Steinhausen) in playing violin (important for forte and piano and for playing close to the tip or to the frog)
The closure of fingers produces an horizontal movement up bowing while the opening a down bowing movement.
you can practice the movement on a pencil before using the bow
Hey,
you'll find also that fortunately the position of fingers which give you a comfortable grip of the bow is univoque so once you think to have found it memorize the disposition.
A further advice:
In order to avoid the sliding of the thumb the contact point should be the lateral right part close to the nail. If you use the central part of the fingertip, you cannot bend the thumb with consequent lack in the technique and reversibility of the collective movement of the fingers(also if you walk you have to bend your big toe).
I've been "fiddling" w/ this issue on and off as well -- of course, that's to be expected as a newbie. :-p The few teachers in our Suzuki program all suggest the prevailing method here, ie. thumb tip between the leather and the frog, wedged mainly against the leather, w/ thumb bent/rounded of course. I've also been told by one teacher to keep the thumb more or less pressed against the side of the bow hair w/ hand/wrist pronated -- though all that probably apply mainly when bowing between the center portion and the frog end, not so much towards the tip end where you naturally lose some bending in your thumb and also cannot keep hand/wrist pronated.
Anyway, I think I'm finding lately that I need to shift my hand up (or my thumb down) ever so slightly for "better" alignment between 2nd finger and thumb as well as better balancing/guiding from the index finger for a firmer, steadier hold.
BTW, Mendy, you wrote:
"I've seem some strange holds with professionals - even as far as holding the bow above the metal windings for a certain style of playing...."
I believe you're probably refering to the Baroque style of holding the bow. My teacher mentioned that at some point.
_Man_
The bow grip is just one more example of violin oddities that don't make sense to me. As a mechanical engineer, I can appreciate the limitations on manufacturing 300+ years ago, but to not have a bow with an ergonomic grip today is holding on to tradition too hard I think.
Robin, that makes a lot of sense. I've always placed my thumb partly on the frog but have never been happy with it. Trying it just now on the leather feels better. I think the 'grip' is freer, better balanced and the bow can be rotated more easily.
A secure bow grip also depends on having enough but not too much of the index over the stick, and the two middle fingers over a little and just firm enough to help the stick not roll or wiggle in the hand. Sue
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January 24, 2006 at 05:24 PM · It might be useful to consider the octogonal shape of the stick . The stick is hold with the index finger which touchs the lower slanting part and with the pinky which rests diagonally on the upper opposite slanting part.The thumb is then added and placed on the inferior slanting part on the same side than the pinky and is facing the second finger to form the ring. Holding the bow with only index finger and pinky allows to relax your thumb.
However this is not a definitive grip.