Vuillaume atelier bows
I'm wondering about Vuillaume's workshop. I've tried two Vuillaumes now that I really like. One is believed to be a Voirin (and really looks like it), and another was at one time appraised as a Simon, and then downgraded to a regular "Vuillaume".
What's the deal with this? I know that a select few top bowmakers made for him, therefore because of the ambiguity of exactly who made the bow, are they bargains in the marketplace?
Replies (26)
Yes, and Bernadel was stamped for Thomassin...
I understand this concept, but I'm wondering as to why Vuillaumes are cheaper than the maker's bows themselves.
Most Vuillaumes can be bought at a certain price, whereas Charles Pecatte, Maline, Voirin, Simon etc... all fetch higher prices (for the most part).
Gennady....
Ahh........... so you want to be an expert?????
I will have to start charging for the info :)
haha nono not an expert... just a buyer. If we're in a city at the same time, I'll pay for drinks. Half of what I know about bows comes from you.
Gennady...any chance of getting a repaired link for the Harry Partch piece on your site?
Hi Jonathan,
oh that's something I need to get back and start dealing with.......... The website needs to be updated, especially with our upcoming concerts with Wayne Horvitz.
Pieter wrote: "I understand this concept, but I'm wondering as to why Vuillaumes are cheaper than the maker's bows themselves."
I don’t think they necessarily are Pieter. I’d say the average price for a generic Vuillaume bow is equal to, or above, what one might expect to pay for some of the Vuillaume workshop maker’s later works... like Pfretzschner.
Voirin, Simon, C Pecatte, and Maire usually fetch higher prices... or am I wrong? When they know a bow is Simon but has a Vuillaume stamp, is it sold as a Simon? Why do they sell a bow as a Vuillaume if they know who made it?
"When they know a bow is Simon but has a Vuillaume stamp, is it sold as a Simon?"
Yes. If a bow is known to be a Simon made for Vuillaume, or Gand freres, etc., it's sold as a Simon made for Vuillaume or Gand freres.
"Why do they sell a bow as a Vuillaume if they know who made it?"
If the maker is known, and it's made by one of the better makers, it's not sold as generic.
In the case of the "Simon" you noted above, I assume the attribution was questioned by someone qualified, so it was downgraded.
Expertise is important here... These makers worked side by side, in many cases... so there are similarities. Pfretzschner continued to produce Voirin style bows after returning to Germany... so the inspiration is evident. In the '60s (when the prices were not as wide spread), more bows than Peccatte ever could have produced were marketed as "Vuillaume Peccattes". Many of these have been corrected. Some have been re-attributed to Maline or Simon, some from Dominique to Francois, others to Vuillaume workshop.
"Believed to be" is too weak an attribution to receive a Voirin price in the market. If it's a Voirin, it should be a simple matter to submit it to Millant or Paul Childs for a reliable opinion. The effect on the value would certainly outweigh the expense of the opinion. I'm sure the seller knows that. :-)
Yea, one I'm looking at was downgraded. Well, as it has been explained to me before, when you buy a Vuillaume, you're usually buying a very good bow.
Thank you for that illuminating reply.
I very lucky to play a Philadelphia Orchestra member's Vuillame bow and I can attest it's greatness. My own bow is a very good copy of one that this player actually gave me an offer for ($5k!).
I might be repeating what has been said, but oh well. My understanding of Vuillame is that there's Vuillame and then the people in his workshop. And, as the case always is, certain makers get better reps, so I take it that a "Simon" Vuillame is among the reputable.
As for a "downgraded" Vuillame, I'm sure it's probably a perfect bow that doesn't have the "Simon" name but is still a Vuillame.
Either way, you're in for a nice treat. These bows are amazing; they respond well and maintain a strong balance. They seem very lightweight b/c they can be somewhat "smaller" but my bow is a perfect 60 grams, so it makes up for that. Hehe, if you don't like the bow, send it to me :)
Ken,
Vuillaume employed the very best makers of the time in his shop.
Vuillaume also inspired them to do their very best, and he also invented the Vuillaume style frog bow, which was taken up by Maline, Simon, Voirin and a great many immitators since. He also invented the steel bow as well (which was the carbon fibre of its time).
There is much good literature available on Vuillaume, in fact the next definitive Iconography on Vuillaume is due for release this coming fall 2006 by Sylvette Milliot. Incidentally, it will feature my J.B. Vuillaume Ex-Garcin violin and my two bows of Maline and Voirin.
HI all,
This thread sounds quite interesting, because Vuilluame himself didn't make bows. I was wondering what is the current market value of a Vuillaume bow? Is it within the $10,000 mark?
Thanks,
Jack
Hi,
Depends on the bow. I tried one last year. Price tag was 15K.
Cheers!
This is quite an old thread......
I tried a superb Maline (branded VUILLAUME), price tag 45K (US$).
Vuillaume had the very best crafstmen working for him.
That includes Peccatte, Maline, Simon, Voirin and many more.
A great many of these bows are stamped VUILLAUME.
Vuillaume had three brands during his long career. To know more about the brands and the specific timeline, pick up the new iconography by Sylvette Milliot.
As for the prices, it varies on the markets (depending where you are). Peccattes are most expensive, Maline and Simon are right behind. Voirin is undervalued. In fact less than a hundred years ago, Voirin bows were much more popular with the soloists than Peccatttes were.
Misha Elman loved his Voirin (62g).
If a bow is identified more as a Vuillaume bow (without a specific name), then it may be a bargain.
Ofcourse when buying an antique bow, make sure it comes with a good certificate (preferably by Millant, Raffin or Paul Childs).
Incidentally, the bowmakers who worked at Vuillaume's included:
Persoit, D. Peccatte, Fonclause, Maline, J. Henry, P. Simon, F. Peccatte, N. Maire, F.N. Voirin, C. Peccatte, J.J. Martin, C.C. Husson, P. Colas,
My bow is in this camp... I'm actually not sure what it is. Stamped Vuillaume, its certificate names it a Charles Peccatte but others have called it Simon. It is a so-called "picture bow" (Mr. V is inside the frog) which either complicates or simplifies things, I'm not sure!
Hey Nate,
Most of the great picture bows were made by Simon. Charles Peccatte as well as F.N. Voirin had made a few as well.
There were others (including some German makers) that followed suit copying the idea of the picture bow with Vuillaume style frog.
In fact I had commissioned a great American Maker Keith Peck to copy a G/T picture bow of Voirin, and the result was spectacular. I asked him to make it in Amber frog (which I supplied). For the full story of this commission, check out STRINGS magazine:
and to see more photos of my Amber frog picture bow, go to www.keithpeck.com
For the most part, to me Simon and Charles Peccatte are quite different in style when you see examples (by both makers) side by side made with Vuillaume style frog etc.
I would have to see it to give you my opinion.
But who is the certificate from?
Christian, I know which bow you're talking about (W&D). I was thinking of buying it but after trying it twice, it was clear it wasn't worth it at all.
I'm much happier with the Millant.
Incedentally the same shop still has a gold mounted "Exposition" Millant.
Gennady, I wish I'd had this bow to show you when I was in Seattle but I bought it from a colleague only last year. The certificate is from Moennig in the early 90s. I have a book from one of the big conventions a few years ago (you probably know which one it would be) where Paul Childs gives an opinion and they have a discussion.
I'll definitely show you when we cross paths again, and in the meantime if such things are interesting to you I could take some good pictures.
Hi there,
If the bow is stamped "Vuilluame a Paris" does that indicate who it might have been made by? I have this bow that I might consider buying it, it is a Vuilluame bow but I don't know whether it is a real Vuilluame or not. THe seller hasn't given me a price tag. I was wondering what I would be expected to pay for a Vuillaume? Do you guys think its a good buy?
Nate,
If you are interested to know more details about your bow, feel free to email me some pics perhaps from the certificate along with the description of the certificate.
Just so you know, I am a member of the Appraisers Association of America.
...............................................
Jack Lin,
If it is marked "Vuilluame a Paris", it does not tell you the whole story.
I would have to see the bow to tell you if it is a good buy or not.
There were many copies made of Vuillaume bows at the turn of the century (19th-20th cent.) by many French as well as GERMAN MAKERS.
Have a professional ( where you are) look at it to give you an opinion.
The question is, is it being sold as a french bow from the Vuillaume shop? does it come with a certificate? and what are they asking for it?
Feel free to email me with details.
Pieter - Yep, that's the bow. I don't remember trying that Millant...
Cheers!
The Millant came in after the Viola cult meeting this summer.
cull?
so what is the asking price (in Canada I guess?) for a G/T exhibition Millant? feel free to email the reply.
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January 4, 2006 at 01:23 PM · Hi,
The answer is that makers worked as apprentices and the bows were stamped with the workshop stamp. Vuillaumes are not the only ones. For example the Fétiques worked for Caressa&Français and some Caressa&Français bows are by them.
Cheers!