Weight, tension of strings and bridge on violin-how does it affect the sound?
How does weight bearing down on the top of the violin alter, affect, change, etc. the sound of the violin?
I'm talking about strings. Titanium and Evah's have a greater weight, tension, etc. bearing down on the top of the fiddle. How, scientifically, does this alter the sound of the fiddle?
What are the weights of the regular Thomastic Dominant strings?
How does the heighth of the bridge come into play in terms of added tension?
How much tension is too much?
Why does it depend on the fiddle?
Does the arching or the thickness of the top have anything to do with it?
Replies (10)
I have been experimenting with a very cheap 50 dollar used viola--carving bridges, etc. It is as Michael says--a pile of variables all co-dependent. Very interesting but clearly there is going to be a steep learning curve!
Is it possible to answer the following:
1. How does tension affect a violin with high arching, fairly thin plates, a high bridge, and Evah's (or similar high tension strings)?
2. How does tension affect a violin with high arching, 'normal' thickness in plates, a high bridge, and Evah's (or similar high tension strings)?
3. How does tension affect a violin with high arching, fairly thick plates, a high bridge, and Evah's?
4. How does tension affect a violin with high arching, normal plates, a standard bridge in terms of height, and Evah's?
5. etc.
6. etc.
7. and so forth
What I mean by tension affecting sound, basically I mean, does it inhibit or expand vibration of the plates, and why?
I would say that in general tension is bad, and that most violins operate at the high end of the tension scale, because of a pervasive myth in the last half of the 1900s that more tension is better. More tension does not result in more sound, nor a better sound. Tune your violin down a half step, and you'll see the direction that less tension will lead.
Hi, there! Got a question for Michael (or anyone else who's got a thought about it); this thread just made me think of it...
I imagine it's difficult to answer, not being able to see my violin, of course, but just in general, what does it mean when someone (a luthier) says my violin's tone would sound better with a "smaller" bridge? Not a "shorter" bridge, just smaller?
I'm considering whether or not to try it; although I've got a very important recital coming up in Feb. and I'd hate to get myself into trouble beforehand. And this suggestion is coming from a luthier I've just met at a school where I teach. Then again, it is "only" the bridge... heh heh...
Just curious. Any comments are appreciated. :)
'Where is that confounded bridge'. Sarah, I would, and do, experiment with as many bridges as I have time for as I've found that a different bridge can make a very big difference in tone. It all depends on the violin and the various factors mentioned above.
William, I think that your questions are very interesting but, adding along the same lines to Michael's comments, are not able to be answered easily simply because of the lack of an experimental 'control'. Do you have a specific purpose in mind?
You obviously can't use the violinist as a control since s/he will change left and right hand factors to suit taste. I don't believe one can use tension as a control because a string has too many other properties as Michael notes (well, it would be very difficult and involve a huge amount of experimentation).
Different strings have different density/size ratios, different chemical properties, different shapes over time, and react differently to precession (the tendency for a string to alternate vibrational patterns at right angles), which in turn is affected by the properties of the bow, and this leads us back to the uncontrolled violinist (did I say that).
Since the string is basically a cylinder, it moves up/down, back/forth, and twists/untwists. When it twists it steals frictional kinetic energy via impetus that is very different from the normal frictional back/forth force acting on the bridge. And the thicker the string the greater the twist factor, which also complicates the relationship of tension to tone. In part your questions point to reasons why string makers are going towards thinner strings (i.e., so that such factors are lessened).
Then, as also mentioned by Michael, the arching is relevant too, and has to be used in any calculation of forces. The 'triangle of forces' upon the bridge means that string tension (as a force) will produce split forces acting on the bridge that are greater than the sum of their parts (on both sides of the bridge). And bridge pressure is calculated by bridge+arch height not the bridge alone. So this has to be considered in any discussion of string/bridge tension.
String tension yields less than 1/2 its value to static pressure on the bridge. I think a typical steel E string (at between 9-10 kgm of tension) will only produce about 4 kgm static pressure on the bridge. A set of Dominants (or most polyamide cores) have string tensions close to: G 5 kgm, D 5.3 kgm, A 5.6 kgm, E 9 kgm. The set will produce a typical static pressure on the bridge of about 10.7 kgm. Quality gut strings yield higher tensions and steel-cored strings even more, so too much tension probably isn't that much of an issue. I've read that a typical violin can withstand up to 50 kgm of tension which would be about 20 kgm static pressure on the bridge. So there's a fair bit of room, but you're not going to venture past a thicker steel string unless you design and make your own.
Stradivari's greatest 'invention' was his change to the flat arching from the Amati high arching. This is because the bridge ratio (the distance from bridge foot to string divided by the distance btwn feet centers) is related to the force upon the bass bar, and is greater when the bridge is high because the arching is flat. Hence when Strad reduced the arching and used a higher bridge...more sound. But then again, to get this sound out greater bow energy must be spent.
One the one hand, I think you can extrapolate answers to your questions by using the triangle of forces, bridge+arch measurements, string characteristics, bridge ratio, and the general 'fitness' of a violin, but on the other hand (especially since I don't know your purpose) the number of secondary factors and general wood characteristics would put a fairly large hole in such calculations being interpreted as anything but the most general of rules, and even then I'd be doubtful of the results.
Sarah, it's hard to tell what he means without seeing it, but the usual flaw that bridges have is being too thick. A bridge blank is just a blank, and if you fit the top and bottom and then leave it the original thickness it sort of does the job, but the additional thickness works exactly the same as putting a tiny mute on. Likewise for the various cut-outs, which also need to be enlarged. Many people who work on violins don't have much of a handle on what to do, and just do a minimal amount.
The art of making a bridge, the thing that you pay some people a whole lot of money for, is knowing what to removed, and when to stop (after a certain point things get worse), for your particular violin, and also for your playing style. So if I were fitting a bridge for you, I'd ask you to play, I'd play, and we'd have a little discussion about how we both thought your violin acts, and what you'd like to change, and then I'd cut the bridge according to that.
How well that comes out depends on how much the person doing the work knows. I'd say that about 98% of makers do about the same thing every time with a result that is adequate though not optimal, if they're well trained, and barely functional if they're not. If you want this work done, ask around to find someone who's got a lot of respect with local players for doing a good job, not just anyone who happens to own a knife.
Rick, I think most makers view the difference between Strad and Amati arches differently: an Amati arch is a stiffer arch than a Strad, no matter how you manage it--even when they're the same height. It's possible to set up the geometry any way you want on either, but the stiffness affects things in ways that you can't negate by setup.
Even though the topic is quite wide, I’ll try to be brief. As it is obvious already from your question, one needs to distinguish between the string tension and the pressure applied to the top the bridge. In this case the height of the bridge does not have any impact on the string tension (as defined by the producer). Various string tensions, however (together with a high bridge), predetermine the pressure applied by the bridge to the top. This pressure is a kind of coefficient of the bridge height and the tension of used strings.
As for the tension of the strings themselves, I believe that it is generally known that in principle the higher string tension the higher potential of the string in forte, and at the same time the response is lowered in particular in piano and in high positions. A lower tension improves the response, but limits the dynamic potential upwards. Of course, a lot depends on particular string. You may have noticed that there are strings having problems with response and their dynamic potential is not very high. On the other hand, high-quality strings reach with a majority of instruments a huge dynamic extent, while offering an excellent response.
The impact of the height of the bridge on sound is often emblazoned with some secret. It is generally assumed that the higher bridge, the better sound. I would be very cautious saying this is a general truth. In any case, I would recommend avoiding both extremes. For example, a very low bridge may really often result in a less powerful sound but also some practical problems with playing on exterior strings (E, G), though projecting sound itself is influenced more by the shape and weight (especially thickness) of the bridge. Laws of bridge construction are too complicated to be described here in several lines. But if your are not satisfied with the sound of your instrument, you had better check whether your bridge is not too heavy or wider than 1.8 - 2 mm on the top, whether its legs are not too long (which shifts the centre of gravity upwards, which is not ideal), and whether the central decoration cutting does not extend by its lower side to the upper side of side cutting.
You are asking: How much tension is too much? This is really difficult to say. Nevertheless, it is often true that less is sometimes more. Therefore, the strings I have developed are constructed so that they would reach the best possible results with the least possible tension. There are some instruments, of course, that are very good in standing higher string tensions. It is often true about new instruments. Older instruments are usually more sensitive to high string tensions which can be even damaging regarding the sound and the strain of instrument itself. A permanent pressure of the bridge results in deforming the top and event the back.
Finally, I would like to point out that comparing particular string tensions in tables of various producers makes no sense at all. There is namely no single methodology or standard to measure the string tension declared by producers. If you take an A string and you tune it up on a violin with the string length 325 mm at 440 Hz, you will get a completely different value from that when you tune up the same string on an instrument with the string length of 330 mm at 443 Hz. Moreover, when the producer states the for example the tension value of 4.6 without declaring which maximum deviations from this value are guaranteed, this value is actually valueless.
I believe that some experimenting is worthwhile, with both, the bridge and the strings. These are two factors (except of soudpost of course) which may significantly change the instrument’s character.
Interesting reads, everyone. Thanks for your input. Actually, I love my instrument.
I''m just wondering about various facets of sound. General musings....
But I've learned a great deal from all of your replies. Thank you so much Michael, Rick and Bhodan!
Yes! Thanks so much for your detailed answers!
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December 15, 2005 at 01:26 PM ·
The simple answer is that there is no simple answer. You can't compare string types against each other in this way because the strings are constructed differently in so many ways, specifically to sound different from each other; however if you want to find out the difference that only tension gives, change to the same brand, but a lighter or heavier gauge.
This only tells the difference that string tension gives, though, not about differences in setup, because when you change the height of a bridge you're not only changing the height, you're changing the bridge's leverage on the top, and the weight distribution of the bridge.
Differences in violins come into play because some are naturally stronger or weaker, thicker or thinner, and have higher or lower arches. The arch issue is particularly slippery, because the same bridge height on different arches results in different tensions. A smart violin adjuster will be thinking about a lot of things that you won't, all at once when he sets these things up.