What After Seitz 5th Concerto?
I was looking at the spread on Next Concerto and I was wondering what the next concerto for me would, suzuki unrelated. Right now I am doing the 3rd movement of Seitz 5th concerto, so that intermediate, what would the next three or four concertos be that I should work on?
Replies (50)
that seems like a bit of a jump to me
I played Accolay, Bach A minor, Haydn G major first and then Viotti 23
I would check out the Bach A minor, or Mozart G major (no. 3). Vivaldi's not such a bad choice either, although you can also cover those in the suzuki books I beleive.
I suggest one of the season by Vivaldi, it is a lot harder, but can be managed after seitz no.5, only spring first movement. The Bach a minor, Viotti 23, then mabye Paganini concerto no.2
I was joking with the Paganini...lol, but after the Viotti 23, mabye Mozart no. 4, 5
you almost gave me a heart attack with that paganini suggestion. *phew*
I did Bach A minor after Seitz 5.
do accolay # 1. or if u want to take bigger step, do bach e major
Greetings,
The ASTA has a list of sequenced works and studies which I think is very helpful, although after a certain point it all becomes rather arbitrary. I mean we see the Bach a minor down the bottom of most people`s lists but it remians one of those concertos that even advanced players make a pig`s ear of much of the time,
Cheers,
Buri
Well, a Nardini concerto (e minor perhaps), or maybe Tartini, Corelli before Viotti can work. Some of the Kreisler pieces can work well at this level.
Oh my, I remember when I learned the Nardini concerto... no offense to anybody, but I really hated that piece. Maybe I hated it because I was little (I think I was 7 when I played that) and I had NO musical insight whatsoever... but I just remember playing it and hating it and wanting to stop playing it. -__-"
But ANYWAY, a good piece to play after Seitz 5 is the Accolay concerto in a minor. :D
I hated nardini as well, and I did stop learning it, In favor of Meditation Thais.
Greetings,
I thought the Nardini was utter garbage. it is, as far as I know acomposite formn nefarious sources. There are an awful lot of much better baroque/classical masterpieces hanging around so i think it is time to burn this one,
Cheers,
Buri
PS notice that Nardini is an anagram of `in drain`
Man, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who hated it. :D
Vernon, you got lucky. My teacher made me "finish" it. But of course, I sucked so much that he just got tired. I think I played The Bee (Schubert, I think) afterwards. That was an interesting piece.
Thanks for the pieces. Oh and why do you guys hate Nardini? I've never heard it, but do you guys not like it because of the technique involved or just the sound?
Greetings,
the first movement is utterly unimaginative, the second is death on wheels, and the third is appropriate for funerals.
Not a prune to be heard,
Cheers,
Buri
1. Mozart Concerto in G.
2. Beethoven Romance in F.
3. Parts of the Beethoven Concerto in D.
Kevin
hmm, i'd leave the beethoven for later.
I agree with Owen... Beethoven is not up for grabs especially not after Seitz 5.
Are we talking the Seitz in Suzuki 4? If so I'd suggest the Viv G Major op.3 no.3 would be a more suitable follow-up.
I didn't think the Nardini was so bad... nice lyrical passage plus climax on mvmt 1 p.2.
Greetings,
I was too young to know about stuff like that,
Cheers,
Buri
Really, Nardini wrote a lot of concerti...his fame didn't come out of thin air.I enjoyed learning the e minor.It was followed by the Viotti in my case.
Greetings,
I think there is some doubt as to whether Nardini actually wrote the e mnor. At leastit is wll documented as being an amalgamation of various sources,
Cheers,
Buri
i dunno, the viotti still seems like a big jump to me.
I agree, going straight to Viotti would be leaving out a few steps...
Greetings,
my apologies for not offering an alternative. But I am also inclined to agree with the posters who have doubts about the Viotti. I believe this composer`s status is changing at this time from being a `student torturer` to recognition of how sophiticated and original his works were. Incidentally, this view was held in the late 19th and early 20th century. In his book, Milstein describes being blown away by Kreisler`s perfomance of no 22 (a favorite of Ysaye , Gibngold, Brahms to name but a few)
No 23 was also the set entry piece for the Guildhall School of Music and Drama about twenty years ago. I would never underestimate the stylistic demands and technical polish required to play the works of Viotti. He was, after all, pivotal in the creation of the mnost elegant school of violin playing of its time ...
I suppose I might put in a plug for the Bartok 44 duets at this point. Real technique builders. Then there are many juicy short piece like Ten Have- Allegro Brillant.
Cheers,
Buri
My own experience is that Viotti(#23)is only too far a leap if the technical foundation hasn't been set through 3 octave scales, etudes, etc.Naturally, every student has different abilities, though we all face the same challenges.
I've found it's easier for my own pupils to play Viotti convincingly than it is for them to bring off Haydn, or Mozart (or one of the Stamitz', for that matter).
Viotti was a far superior fiddlist (to coin a phrase) than Haydn.His concerti are very idiomatically written for the instrument. They employ violinistic tricks that sound impressive and difficult, yet lay so well on the fiddle they are rather easy to pull off once the trick is learned.Of course Haydns' music is deeper,more lofty,less airy than Viotti, less in need of interesting "tricks"(one could get sidetracked into discussing the German & Italian traditions);but it isn't written around the instrument so dependently, and needs special fingerings & period training to be convincing. I shudder at the thought of giving the Casadesus- Mozarts' Adelaide concerto to a pupil who hasn't dealt with the V. # 23 - but no doubt there are special talents out there who would prove my misgivings false; they make it all worthwhile!
I agree that Viotti is probably not the best choice, although I'm sure that someone who has a working knowledge of technique could pull it off. I think that a more logical progression straight out of the suzuki books is the Bach A minor, or the Mozart G major. These are both more technically challenging than the Seitz, but at the same time are entirely do-able. Another piece that is great for building many different techniques on the violin is the DeBeriot. And by all means, don't do Beethoven. I played the Beethoven way way too early, and I regret learning it before I was really ready to take it on completely and do it well.
i think mozart is a good choice actually, although most students can't pull off a very good performance, in terms of technical difficulties its a good next step. You can revisit them later and try to get tonal shading, different bow strokes and musicality in there, its a whole different sort of study.
Greetings,
just to muddy things further, I would prfer the Mozart 3,4,5 all to be left for some time. My reasoning it that there are some pieces that can be used as technical stepping stones and some that are so importnat muscially that the student should be above them in technical terms so that they are free to struggle with the music which is then a whole new set of problems.
All too often a young players memory of struggling with a Mozart concerto taints their attitude and abilti9y with that composer at a later date.
Cheers,
Buri
Sir, I concur.
Really??? I think the Mozart Concerto in G and the Beethoven Romance in F are pretty much equal in difficulty. The Beethoven Romance in G is more difficult because of all the double stops. I agree the Beethoven Concerto is tough, but I work on little parts of it at a time, and even make exercises out of parts of it.
By the way, I hated the Seitz pieces, and they are awful pieces of music.
Kevin
Greeitngs,
the Beethoven Romance is a very difficult piece and, at least for me, not that interesting.
What is the dififculty of the Mozart? In philosophical terms it demonstrates the ambiguity found in Mozart`s violin writing that he was essential a vocal composer and the phrasing has to reflect he influenc eof Italin language and articulation.
On a more concrete level I think the hardest aspect of bowing is a flawless detache and as we work through our etude books what we are often doing is trying to achieve a higher level of this basic bowing. The fancy stuf f is just an off shoot.
In order for Mozart to sound effective a -very- high level of control of detache and also somehting called messa voce (the ability to do minute dynamic graduations within any note, at any time, in any part of the bow) . Beginners can make a reasonable sound on this concerto at times but the result is not really close to satisfactory and it deadens the learners senses as to what should or could be...
Interestingly Heifetz, was extremely scathing of the way even advanced students hack at these concertos and was also honest enough to say that he found these pieces among the most difficult in the repertoire,
Cheers,
buri
Buri, could you define what you mean by 'beginners' re. the Mozart? e.g. to me a beginner is a student in their first year of tuition.
Greetings,
good question. No idea.
I have intuitive ideas about levels of people but expressing these in writing is difficult.
I suspect the best way is to drop all these rather judgemental labels and use levels of attainment.
What do other people do?
Cheers,
Buri
Greetings,
to expand on that a bit and perhaps acknowledge others suggestions I would note that what makes these highly enjoyable discussions ultimately pointless is that we have no idea what the purpose of the next conceto piece is and how the student is going to be going for it. That is, are they doing somehting a little above them to strecth themselves, do they need ot consolidate or a thousand other possbilities that only athe teacher knows...
So, if you look at the ASTA levels list then the Setz conertos first appear in Level three. The student is supposed to have covered some two octave scales amd an etudefrom Kayser op20 , Levenson or the like.
If the student was staying at this level then the next concerto might be Rieding, Perlman etc. Or the Bohm Moto Perpetuo, Kroll Donkey Doodle and so on.
Suppose the Ss is now jumping up a level . The Flesch system is now intorduced (!) although I am puzzled by this since the actual scale requirment has yet to specify three octaves. The studies now include Trott melodius double stops, whistler-preparing for Kreutzer and Wolfarht op74.
The new concertos alonside Setz arecalled student concertos and include Huber, Kuchler, Telemann and Vivaldi.
So we alreayd don`t know if the origina l poster was coming up to level four inwhich case something like Teleman would be good or wanting to move into level five, in which case///
Some three octave scales, Dont 30 progressive exercises with violin accomp op38, Hoffman double stops op96, sevcik, bowing, shifting, prep double stops, preptrills.
The new repertoire is now:
Accolay, Albinoni,, correlli sonata, Dancal Air Varies, Elgar Chanson de matin, Reiding concerto in G, Sitt a minor, Teleman g, various Vivaldi concertos etc.
If the studnet is at this level and ready to jump then the etudes are now Kayser, Dancla, Mazas and the first Kreutzer.
Repertoire:
Bach a minor
Bartok evening in a village
Bohm Moto Pepretou
Corelli sonatas
La Folia
Dvorak Sonatin
Handel six sonata
Haydn concerto in g
Massenet Meditation
Nardini ocncererto
Ten Have Allegro Brillant
Viotti 23
Vivaldi spring
In othe r words the standard rep has arrived and this may be where the student needs to go.
So, here we are...
Cheers,
Buri
Well I think I know all the pieces I am going to be playing for the next 2 years it seems like thnak you. And Stephen, Wow!!
There are those who would disagree, however: the Associated Board has the Dvorak Sonatina and the Bartok on their Grade 6 syllabus, and the Bach Am, Nardini and Haydn G at Grade 8, some three years of tuition later...
P.S. I agree wholeheartedly with your plan up until the last grouping (which we're all bound to disagree on anyway); on reviewing the Seitz, I believe it's all in first position. Once third position has been mastered I would suggest Kuchler's concertos in the style of Vivaldi. Three octave scales at this level are really unrealistic; Jasmine, don't worry - I'm sure your teacher is doing his/her job. This thread will keep you busy for, oh, about the next four years.
P.P.S. Buri, could you please send me your email address?
Directly after seitz..I played a pretty good order:
Bach no.1
DeBeriot no.9
Mozart no.5
Mozart no.4
Ziguenerwiesen..lol seriously
mendelssohn
Lalo
Bruch no.1
Intro. & Ron. Capr. (S.S)
Tchaikovsky
Veixtemps no.5, I was so happy when i played this with an orchestra as a surprisse!!
Paganini no.1 then 2
Sphor no.8 then 7 then 16 (the hardest one i think)
I dont remember the rest..but that can keep you busy for the next 3 or so years..
hmm, tchaik before vieuxtemps, thats not done very often
And Spohr even after that can't be that common either.
Greetings,
Mattias, I leave my spore all over the place,
Cheers,
Buri
Oh, I thought it was dandruff!
Greetings,
either way, there was no excuse for sprinkling it on your prunes,
Cheers,
Buri
I did Tchaikovsky Before Viuextemps, I'm Still working on Viuextemps here and there... I don't have lessons over the summer so I have no Motivation whatsoever.
Owen..Im not sure if Tchaikovsky is played more often after veixtemps 5th concerto, but Im pretty sure it is not as hard as Veixtemps no.5, technically and musically, They go together musically a little more on viextemps, but veixtemps 5 is pretty much "harder".
you'd be surprised when you see some of spohrs violin concertos, ie.16 which is performed often. By the way, playing for example Lalo after wieniawski no.1 does not mean your going in a bad order even though wieniawski is obviously harder, because when your at the level of the weiniawski(s), playing a piece less hard after that that has no harm. Its adding great literature to your mind...youd be surprised, you might even impprove techniquely...happened with me
the lalo can be difficult to do really well, the rythms have to be interesting for one thing.
This discussion has been archived and is no longer accepting responses.
Violinist.com is made possible by...
Dimitri Musafia, Master Maker of Violin and Viola Cases
Elmar Oliveira International Violin Competition
Johnson String Instrument/Carriage House Violins
Subscribe
Laurie's Books
Discover the best of Violinist.com in these collections of editor Laurie Niles' exclusive interviews.
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 1, with introduction by Hilary Hahn
Violinist.com Interviews Volume 2, with introduction by Rachel Barton Pine
May 10, 2004 at 04:59 AM · Once the Vivaldi has been mastered, I recommend Viotti # 23 in G major. By this point, all major & melodic- minor 3- octave scales and arpeggios should be under your fingers (if your teacher is doing their job).Now you're leaving the nest and can start to fly!