Schubert Fantasia, Extremely hard?
Maxim Vengerov considers Schuberts Fantasia for violin and piano the hardest piece he ever played. This comes a man who has played many of the hardest pieces known to man like the Echo-sonata etc.
What makes this piece so hard I wonder?
Replies (28)
Anything Schubert is just really hard. OK, some stuff isn't all that hard- the sonatinas for example. But it's very exposed, so there is no room for error. And then you have to walk an extremely fine line between classicism and romanticism.
He has so many color and texture changes that have to be brought out, and he does them in many unique and technically challenging ways. Part of the reason the Fantasy is so hard is because it's so long, and you have to work like crazy to keep it sounding interesting. (The critic of its premiere was unable to give a complete review because he left before it was over due to its length).
My personal favorite recording is Busch/Serkin.
The Schubert fantasia is beautiful...the hardest thing about playing Schubert (although I've never played the fantasia) are his melodies. They have to be as romantic as possible while still remaining true to the relatively classical quality that often shows itself in his work. The melodic material in his pieces repeat at times, too(at least in the Schubert that I have played) but the emotional complexity of those melodies is usually altered in some way, whether by slight ornaments, key alterations, or changes in the chord progressions in the piano, or even variations of those chord progressions. It is important to use these details to change the emotional texture+color of his melodies.
"(The critic of its premiere was unable to give a complete review because he left before it was over due to its length)."
Who left, Vengerov?
The Echo-sonata is a 15 minute plus solosonata that demonstrates almost every violintechnique in the book. Written by Shchedrin for Vengerov!
The critic of the premiere of the Schubert left :P
Most anything by Schubert is hard, no matter what instrumentation it is for. He didn't play the instruments himself, so I think that probably had an impact.
The Kremer recording is excellent!
btw Kelsey, Schubert played the viola in quartets with his family members.
I had to analyze this piece for a music history class, and had been told by others, "this is a difficult piece!" I think just the opening is difficult; one long, sustained note that you have to make intersting somehow. Also, for schubert, I think this piece is unusually virtuosic. And, as others have said, it's a difficult line between romantic and classical (reminds me of the mendelssohn in that aspect). I heard either kremer's or vengerov's recording (can't remember which--maybe both?), and I liked it. The other recording I didn't like as much--can't remember whose is whose!
Schubert is very difficult, but for really good recordings of this piece go with Kreisler with Rachmaninov and Huberman.
Thanks for the reminder, Bob ;)
I agree it's an amazing piece. There is also a wonderful recording with Adolf Busch and Rudolf Serkin.
The piano part is apparently as difficult as the violin part so even if one wants to play it, finding a pianist who is up to the challenge can be difficult.
The thing that makes it so difficult is the incredibly awkward violin writing.
The broken arpegio passage at bar 529 is an absolute terror to play in tempo. Many very good violinists play a simplified version of this piece which has some minor changes which make it more managable. For instance, the bass notes are omitted in the passage at bar 529 (and the other similar passages). Since those notes are already covered in the piano part, it doesn't make a big difference. Probably the only people who notice the difference would be those who've played it.
Hi Joseph, I believe your making a mistake with the Kreisler recording of the Schubert Sonata. The Sonata that Kreisler recorded I believe with Franz Rupp was in A Major (and called the duo) The Fantasy that Schubert wrote (and it is indeed much more dificult than the A Major Sonata, is in C Major. Andreas, even Heifetz didn't feel very comfortable with this Sonata. You have to think of Schubert's songs when you play this Sonata. Technically it's also very challenging. If you don't have the music, get it, and see what you can make of it. It's a huge challenge, I've studied it and re-looked at it for years now and it's still a monster. By the way the Piano part is also a handful. Pianists have as much trouble with their part as we do with ours. I know, my pianist told me so.
by the way Andreas, Rachel said something very important about the opening. after the piano has a few temolo bars the violin has to play a c. Now the problem, because even tho the violin plays c, the piano changes harmonies. What do you do with this note. Do you start it up bow or down bow. Do you change your bow while playing this c also what about the notes that follow which have to grow out of this c. Probably the most dificult begining of any violin piece that I know of.
Ah, sorry about that, it's true, my mistake.
continuing about problems with begining the 1st mvt. The whole 1st theme is very awkward to play. There has to be places where you can breathe. It is very difficult to play this first phrase. Somewhere you have to change your bow, and you have to do it skillfully enough so as not to disturb the line of the theme. (and this is only the begining of the piece, there a plenty of other real technical and musical problems to solve as you go along.)
I just love this piece. I have been listening to a recording by Gyorgy Pauk and Peter Frankl for weeks now. Very free.
Ihnsouk
There's a wonderful recent 2-disc recording of Schubert's violin/piano music, including the Fantasy, by Arnold Steinhardt and Seymour Lipkin. There are a few passages where Steinhardt reminds us that he's no longer in the prime of his youth, but the recording as a whole is breathtaking.
I think that much of the difficulty of Schubert's violin writing (the Fantasy is just one example) stems from the fact that to a large extent he thought pianistically. He makes the violin play figures that are idiomatic for the piano but not for the violin and then makes them even more difficult by modulating into remote keys that violinists abhor. Unfortunately, his music is so sublime that first-rate violinists not only have to master the technical difficulties but to make them sound effortless and inevitable.
Might I throw in a vote for Pamela and Claude Frank's recording. I absolutely adore it.
This is indeed the hardest work I have ever played. The pianist's part is treacherous, and the bow control needed for this work...I believe it is more exposed than the Beethoven concerto.
Julia's live recording (FMF, maybe you can post a clip?) shows that she fully understands it, the only recording of this work that is that convincing.
Andrew: Who is Julia?
Andreas - Julia Fischer.
Anything Pam plays is great and I hear that her teacher, Szymon Goldberg made a great recording with Radu Lupu on Decca.
From what I hear, this piece is much harder to perform live than to record, more so than any other piece. I love Gyorgy Pauk's playing, very light and seemingly unassumed. Something very casual about it, as if someone's whistling on the way home after hanging out with friends.
Ihnsouk
Greetings,
yes the Goldberg/Lupu set is an astonishing achievement.
Cheers,
Buri
Buri,
Have you listened to Pauk and Frankl playing this piece?
Ihnsouk
Greetings,
no, but I am a big fan of Mr. Frankl. He is quite well known in Japan asa teacher.
Cheers,
Buri
I've several piano concertos from Radu Lupu---on LP.
Leeds Piano Competion Winner-circa 1969.
Van Cliburn Competion Winner-circa 1966.
Schubert tends to not be violin-friendly in chamber and duo music. But inspiring to play.
Heifetz does not win this race - he makes a gruesome cut in the coda right before the end. Kremer's recording is excellent, creative as always (so is the B-Minor Rondo, same disk and also challenging). I have an old LP of Francescatti's that I really like too.
In various experiences with Helen Kwalwasser in Philly, she said the same thing about Schubert in general: Schubert is the hardest repertoire for her. She got as specific as emphasizing the bow control required. I remain surprised and a bit perplexed, but for what it's worth, I add her distinguished vote to Vengerov's opinion. And here's a woman who eats Gavinies for breakfast to keep in trim. Go figure. :-)
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May 2, 2004 at 02:01 AM · Yeah my teacher agreed this piece was really up there. I heard that (if I can remember) Gidon Kremer has an awesome recording of it. And btw, who's the echo-sonata by?