J.S.Bach, Sonata no. 1 in G-minor, Presto

August 10, 2013 at 08:26 PM · you want to decide wether its "right" to do 2x3 or 3x2 through the whole piece? I don't think thats the way bach intended. When I play it I change 2x3 and 3x2 according to the music. There can actually be even more complicated rythms like hemioles in some places I think, also when there are slurs the accentuation is really different to either 2x3 or 3x2. Best thing would be you define it for yourself, I think its a worthy journey!

August 10, 2013 at 10:04 PM · Some measures are clearly in 3x2 and some are clearly in 2x3. And many are ambiguous. Bach seems to have enjoyed this ambiguity and shifting of the rhythmic pattern. He did this sort of thing often. You can check out the keyboard partitas for more examples, especially the minuet from the fifth partita in G Major.

At any rate, this G Minor presto lends itself to this kind of "playing with the rhythmic patterns." The opening is quite ambiguous. It could go either way. Measure 35 is clearly in 3/8. Measure 32 is yet another pattern with the four note groups starting off the beat.

I used to try to fit the whole movement into a clear 3/8 pattern. Now I think that the music loses something with that approach. I think it is much more interesting to enjoy and emphasize the changing patterns.

August 6, 2015 at 04:11 AM · Resurrecting this old thread. I just realized that on all recordings I have got, HIP or tragically HIP, everyone plays 3/2 at least in the beginning. It sound like two triplets!

Am I the only one that feels this is simply wrong. Notation is 3/8 not 2/4, 2/8 or 2/2. There are no 2 beats, but 3!

Yes, we can discuss which beat is heavy, or light, but please let me know what is the justification to group sixteenths into 3 and play them like triplets.

August 6, 2015 at 04:22 AM · "but please let me know what is the justification to group sixteenths into 3 and play them like triplets"

Poor taste or just a lack of understanding.

August 6, 2015 at 06:42 AM · Bach is playing with our presumptiosness!

The manuscrpt has "3/8", but with every other barline small, so it is sometimes printed as 6/8.

So we can choose to accentuate each measure or only every other one. Then, if we play it completely evenly, we often hear the 3/8 as 6/16 (technically 2 compound beats not triplets!); I suspect it was deliberate..

Argentine waltzes do this. listen to an authentic version of La Foule..

How about "playing with" the accentuation at the repeats? I think bach had more fun than we suppose.

August 6, 2015 at 09:20 AM · Hemiola was frequently employed by Baroque composers.

August 6, 2015 at 10:28 PM · It's neither Argentinian nor hemiola.

Basically, if you think in one you'll be fine.

August 7, 2015 at 02:08 AM · Scott,

I tend to agree with you. Tempo is Presto and it almost feels in one.

However, grouping 3 notes instead of 2 gives emphasis on different notes in the (broken) cord, or arpeggio. For example, first 3 bars:

In 3: g - g -g, b-flat . . d . .

In 2: g, d, b-flat, g, d b-flat

Now, if we assume the rule of down bow, fist choice makes more sense, because all heavy notes will be played with down, their pairs with up-bow.

Look at the you tube for 2n option: some players even start with UP bow!

Since there is no explicit 2nd voice in continuo (unless hidden in solo part), there is no harmonic or rhythmic lead to hemiola or schemiola. Even if there was, and it is appropriate wherever, the very beginning simply can not be.

Enter editor with suspicions bowing pattern and there is a temptation to play what is convenient, where is convenient.

Bar 17th: if played as written, there is almost a sense of reverb between even and odd bars. To me, at least, grouping into 3 does not make sense.

August 7, 2015 at 02:42 PM · Rocky,

The felling isn't "almost in one", it's definitely in one. I would go even further and suggest the meter is what some theorists call a "hyper meter" which means that you can feel two bars in one unit. (Unfortunately, it doesn't always seem toe quite work, though). Bars like 24-25 are what fool people into thinking suddenly in two, but the last three separate notes in each should be thought of as pickups to the next bars. One of the functions of slurs is emphasis, not just just articulation. So if played correctly the emphasis is on the ascending stepwise motion. Even in bar 112 should be in one, with no accent on the second group. Bars 32-34 are a little wonky. I slur bar 32 into 33.

From 117-120, I don't treat as a hemiola, but keep strong downbeats.

August 7, 2015 at 03:18 PM · Oops!

August 7, 2015 at 03:20 PM · I quite agree about thinking, and playing, in one-measure units, though Bach's half-sized alternate barlines show a deliberate 3/8-6/8 ambiguity.

But assuming we play it fast and "straight," the innocent ear will willingly shift from 3/8 to 6/16 without any help. For my part it is mm 9-11 which I first hear as 6/16. It is one of the great charms of music in triple time.

The groups which "rebound" off the first note (mm 16-19) are examples of Bach's frequent habit of avoiding the obvious.

August 10, 2015 at 03:07 PM · The 6 16th notes are played 2+2+2. So with the double measure that Bach wrote, the division is 2+2+2/2+2+2. The quirk and beauty comes when the articulation and the melodic profile contradicts the metrical layout. Bach employed this trick often and was fond of this contrast between metric and melodic rhytm. Don't be scared of it, but embrace it fully. While the underlying structure is clearly 2+2+2/2+2+2, bring out the notes that go against it and do it with courage, because that's how Bach intended it.