Where to buy Master Violin Tonewood?

September 5, 2012 at 01:12 PM · If you are going to make your first instruments don't worry too much about the quality of your wood. Wood is responsible for a part of the the tonal and visual result, but there are many things to be adressed prior to be worried about the quality of wood.

Many fine classic instruments were made with knoty wood (Stradivari), wood with resin sacks (Stradivari), tops made with mismatched halves (Del Gesù), probably unseasoned wood (Del Gesù), wood with runout, "non traditional tonewood", etc.

It is hard also to link the quality of the wood to tone results, perhaps just a few luthiers can do that, so don't get obssessed with wood if you are a newcomer.

The idea of what "good wood" is may change with time too.

Simeon Chambers offers good American wood for reasonable prices and his service is excellent:

http://rockymountaintonewood.com/

I made a scroll carving tutorial "step by step" with almost 200 photos some years ago, if you google you will find it.

Good luck!

September 5, 2012 at 02:14 PM · Magic wood and magic tuning are the two big myths non-makers like to dwell on, but at this point, as Manfio says, you'll get a lot more mileage on other things, especially picking the best possible model, and doing that as accurately as possible, to your best ability.

You'll find a lot of making stuff (including a series on making a viola) on my site, darntonviolins.com and on my book site, violinmag.com

September 6, 2012 at 03:58 PM · Look online for Orcas Island Tone woods. He has a lot of choices. There are a few dealers that buy in Europe and sell New York.

October 15, 2012 at 10:36 AM · Our company offers master quality european maple in the lowest price on the market. Take a look on it : LINK

In the last years we sold our wood only to tonewood companies in Germany. Now we sell it to everybody in best prices.

drewbas-tonewood.eu

October 17, 2012 at 07:23 AM ·

October 17, 2012 at 12:14 PM · From what you have provided, the police officer's theory sounds pretty shaky. Even if you can tell that one side of the top has been flipped (and you can't always tell, except perhaps for microscopic examination?), how did he determine which side should be called "up"?

Perhaps the notion was that sound flow in wood is somewhat directional, like water flow in a living tree? If so, I haven't run across any evidence for it, even though studies in the last thirty years are much more exhaustive and sophisticated than they were in 1910.

He wasn't the first, and won't be the last person to "discover the secret of Stradivari" though. It happens with quite some regularity. ;-)

October 18, 2012 at 07:43 AM · David Burgess,

Thank you for your reply. I am surprised that you bothered to reply to my questions.

Unfortunately, you sort of answered my questions with questions, however your summary speculation that Reinventing the (mystery-Maker's) Wheel will just be another of many flat tires at the historical roadside that winds back to Stradivari's genius, probably answers all the questions conclusively enough.

Nonetheless, I continued to think about this a little more today. Something was bothering me about it.

Then I realized that I had completely misunderstood what Michael wrote in the first place - and only because his planned illustrations aren't yet present in his draft manuscript: the tops were not flipped end for end primarily for aesthetic reasons.

I had to draw my own illustrations for Michael's text to figure out that flipping one side of the top, end for end, uses the imperfect quarter-sawing of a small diameter tree to advantage by making a substantial correction for the imprecise quarter-sawing along the arch of the top.

As Michael writes, it really is a clever solution, especially if you are Stradivari, making violin tops from small-diameter red-spruce trees from the Val di Femme in the western Italian Alps:

http://www.fazioli.com/en/fazioli/philosophy

Therefore, Michael just answered the first question that I asked in my original post: Yes, of course correcting for imperfect quarter-sawing in a softwood by flipping one side of top, end for end could, and does, affect the tonal characteristics of a violin, and thereby proving the first statement of the mystery-Maker. Hey, thanks.

Furthermore, in suspecting that modern makers using similar poorly-quartered, small diameter, wood, probably do this routinely, I just examined my Snow PV-800 violin and was amazed to see that it the top is constructed in exactly this fashion - the "amazing" part being just how well the arch corrects for the imprecision in the quarter-saw angle on each side - it looks like a photo that should be in Michael's book - the correction on each side is nearly perfect.

So, the once world-famous, but as yet unidentified Washington D.C. policeman-Maker, who contended that one side of the top of a violin should be flipped, end for end, in the wood he was using, in order to construct a proper violin in the style of the old Italian Masters, was correct on this point.

Now he has left me with his four remaining, as-yet unproven contentions:

--you can tell which end of a piece of wood originally grew upward; ( I suspect so)

--would there be any effect on the tonal characteristics of the violin if, once identified, one side should be "up", and the other "down"?,

--and in the case of the old Italian Master's that this Maker studied so assiduously, was the bass-side always "up", while the treble-side was always down?,

--and perhaps the most difficult question, if this is true, why did they do that?

I suspect that, because tree diameters decrease in the upward direction, and the trees we are talking about do have small diameters to begin with, that we can simply count the number of grain-lines across the longest-possible width at each end of each side, of a quarter-sawn top, as measured starting from the opposite ends of any selected grain line, and then the end with the largest-average number of lines per unit width is the end that was nearest the top of the tree? This seems so hopelessly easy that I hesitate to suggest it.

If that doesn't consistently work, then I suppose I must continue what is truly fascinating reading about wood grain and wood structure, which I initially started studying when learning to touch up damaged varnish on violins - something I love doing.

Perhaps Dendrology 101 teaches that the "up" direction can be determined by the preserved polarity of the magnetic field of the metallic molecules in the mineralization bands of the wood, or something. Hopefully it will not be as esoteric as this, however, I speculate that the up direction can somehow be identified with certainty.

If I learn more, I will re-post, or I may post a response to something, but otherwise I will let this topic perish. If I post again, I am most likely to identify the maker or else conclusively define the method by which the upward end of a piece of wood may be identified.

By way of requesting any available help from our community here, here is what I recall about the mystery Maker:

The Maker in question was a career policeman in Washington, D.C. circa 1890-1910. He became one of the first-ever "detectives", and had well-demonstrated powers of observation and evaluation of evidence as illuminated by fact.

He used these skills in his spare time to examine the violins of the old Italian Masters over an extended period of years, first-hand, and additionally, was a celebrated Maker himself.

This maker branded his name, the sequential number of the violin, and then "Washington, D.C." in an oval shape under the button on the back of his violins, and as I recall made two hundred or more instruments during his career.

Furthermore, every famous violinist from around the world who came to Washington, D.C. to perform for decades would go and visit him every time they were in town. This was not an obscure Maker. Surely someone here knows who this was. I will keep looking.

I am almost certain that this Maker would have written all about this, as he was quite literary, well educated, very social, and like most people here, was totally-obsessed with violins.

So all of my questions, and many more, might be fully explained in all detail if he wrote a book, which I would guess is likely.

He was focused only on the work of the Old Italian Master's as the only possible examples for his own Making.

By the way, in reference to an earlier response above, the secret to making truly great violins really is, after all else is Mastered, "magic wood".

October 18, 2012 at 12:07 PM · Yes, flipping one side of the top is fairly common, to get the grain more "vertical" (as viewed from the end) even today.

As for "magic wood":

While there have been studies concluding that there is something different about the wood on the famous Cremonese violins, the latest and most thorough studies, with the largest sample sizes, are indicating more that the wood isn't different from what is available to makers today.

Theories involving "discovering the secret", and magic this or that, seem to be much better at garnering press coverage though, so I can understand if that's what most people believe, based on what they are exposed to. As one gets closer to the core of the luthier trade, and the core of the research, things can look a bit different.

There are also starting to me more and more questions about how much future effort and money should be expended on studying the "special" qualities of the old Cremonese instruments. When "blind" playing and listening tests are conducted, these special qualities can fail to be apparent.

October 18, 2012 at 02:10 PM · I would think that knowing where to get the very very very best tone woods is something that would be useful after one has made, say, 20 violins, not counting the 10 or so VSOs (aka kindling) that you're likely to make at first.

October 18, 2012 at 03:35 PM · I heard that one time Samuel Zygmuntowicz was making two twin violins for a commission, one with choice European tonewood, the other with wood from China, and he made the two violins exactly the same - but that in the end, the customer preferred the one made with Chinese wood.

October 18, 2012 at 03:51 PM · This entire discussion continues to interest me, and to some extent, even is inspiring me to want to make my very first purple VSO. I was heading in that direction anyway, incrementally through learning progressively more complex set ups and repairs. Everyone is posting very interesting comments, above, and below, this one.

David Burgess: Having thrown in my little remark about "magic wood" at the end of that post, I suppose I now have to explain what I meant. I didn't form my opinion of magic wood from reading propaganda in "the press".

In my limited knowledge, here is what magic wood is, and how you identify it.

I suppose it could be any piece of wood, however, you are more likely to find it in the collections of famous violin makers, and the age I suppose could be as little as 3 years, however, violin wood that is as old as 300 years still exists, and everything inbetween.

To identify a piece of magic wood, you must first master all other aspects of your chosen violin model. Few makers ever arrive at this level of craft and understanding. This is necessary, because if you don't know what violin you are going to make, then you can't pick an optimal, or "magic" board, to make it from because you don't know what you are doing in the first place.

Assuming you know your model, and know what tone you wish it to have, then take a likely piece of wood, hold it with two fingers of one hand about a third of the way down, and tap on it with the index finger of your other hand, about two taps per second, at a resonant point up from the bottom of the wood, and listen for the tone. Any good dry wood will resonate, there will be a tone, actually several tones, when tapped, but the maker is listening for one part of the tap tone -- the pitch, attack, sustain; and the "magic".

Suppose you have been tapping your 3 to 300 year old woodpile for all of your life, have made hundreds of violins, quartets, etc., then you have some idea of where to start looking in your stored tonewood forest.

The tapper is looking for very specific qualities in the wood, the exact piece of wood, and tapping works for both the spruce and the maple. Obviously, there are a multitude of variables contributing to the quality of the aged woods.

So here is my definition of "magic" wood: It is that spruce wood, and that maple wood, that is selected by the Master Maker, using a lifetime of experience, plus tapping and listening, to make the violin that he is going to make sound exactly the way he wants it to sound. He knows what the finished violin will sound like before he lays down the pattern on the bench. How to use this ability to advantage is another fascinating topic, but I digress.

There may be as many ways to select tone-wood as there are Makers. I haven't even made my first violin, so I only learn by observation, reading, thinking, listening, studying, and experimenting.

Everyone please do not misunderstand this comment, especially because I likely don't even know what I am talking about, however, the idea of purchasing tonewood from a catalogue, and then building with whatever wood they send you, seems appalling to me.

Rather, I see myself covered with dust from head to toe, climbing around on rickity racks and pulling pieces of wood out from the bottom of huge piles and stacks to find my piece of wood. This is how you select wood for a guitar top, and I just assumed that this is how I would select my violin wood.

Guitar top wood is also selected by tapping. One of my best luthier friends once told me that the finest sounding guitar spruce tended to be "butt-ugly"! He is a master luthier.

He does not own piles of wood up to 300 years old: instead, he just knows where they are, and then gains access to spend whatever time is necessary to select and purchase his own "magic" wood from the people who own and maintain it.

I know one guitar luthier, and one violin Maker who can hear the finished instrument that they are going to make, when they tap the wood. This is rarified air - only the real Master Makers can do this: they can pick their piece of "magic" wood, out of likely stockpiles of wood that has been aged for various time periods up to 300 years.

I will eat my words when I order my first tonewood out of a catalogue, because I don't know who has a fantastic stash of old maple and spruce in my area that they will let me examine and purchase from. However, with regard to hearing the finished instrument in the tapping of the raw wood - I believe that observation has already been well proven: those who can really do it well are simply very rare Makers - the best of the best. The Magic Makers know how to select the magic wood for their incredible modern violins.

Regarding expending additional resources and effort to examine and understand the work and thoughts of the old Italian Masters, I have two short remarks. First, new technologies are popping up all over the place, and the ones that are appropriate to further analysis of the old Italian Masters, will tend to want funding so that they can be used. The other comment is, all funding is Political, so there is always going to be some number of special interest groups fighting for limited resources. I am not surprised at all that there would be a faction who are against spending limited resources and time on old Master research.

I understand your concern that there is a law of diminishing returns in further analysis of the old Masters, and you may be correct in that. However, unless you are responsible for lobbying or distributing research funding, then it is just a personal decision for yourself to make, right?

David Burgess, if you were to make your ultimate Masterpiece Violin at this time, what model would it be, why, and how would you select the wood for it?

October 18, 2012 at 04:51 PM · Hey, I'm not a maker, and I'm a fiddler, so I am looking at this from a whole different perspective.

One thing I would like to add is this:

Think how boring and horrible it would be to have the first violin you make be a wonderful instrument! All the pressure is on for keeping that level! Further, without the experimentation with poor woods, bad grain, and all the problems that come with it, you never really get an intrinsic feel for what sound and wood do together!

If I had time, (and when I retire, I may), I would try and see what I can do with bits of wood and string, see how different pieces of wood make the sound change. I would see it as a journey, not a destination.

October 20, 2012 at 06:57 AM · For David Burgess and anyone else who is interested: possible solution to the Policeman-Maker Statements regarding belly construction on the Old Italian Masters.

Here is the rationale to solve the policeman-Maker mystery:

1. Flip one side of the top end over end as was previously discussed at length in a previous post above.

2. Determine which end is "up" by counting grain lines per unit width, as was discussed above.

3. Position the bass side of the belly "up". This puts wider grain at the bottom of the bass side, and tighter grain at the top.

4. Position the treble side of the belly "down". This puts the wider grain of the treble side at the top, and narrower grain at the bottom.

Any comments on my proposed solution to the mystery are solicited. This particular theory can easily be proven, or disproven, by grain measurements on the belly of any old Italian Master violin. If true, then the resultant sound wave physics of this technique could be determined, probably using a baroque set up, at least at first, then the modern set up after.

October 21, 2012 at 05:49 AM · Lyndon,

Your remark cracked me up! You are quite right! It takes a lot to make me laugh out loud, and you succeeded.

Additionally, I fear that I failed to reject a false null hypothesis, but no one ever worries about type 2 errors anyway.

Conducting a Survey of One has certain statistical advantages though, given that it is significant at p = 0.00000000, with a confidence range for the Survey of plus or minus 0.00000000.

Maybe I should just keep the Survey of One study design, and spend the rest of my $2,500,000 research grant on "conventions" in Las Vegas and Rio.

A former colleague once told me that you only have to fool three people to get the requisite white-paper journal article published!

October 22, 2012 at 09:49 PM · I found the mystery Policeman-Violin Maker from Washington, D.C. discussed in my previous posts. He is Tazewell B. Amiss. I got lucky and found a 1904 newspaper article about him. This interesting, long, illustrated, newspaper article does have a section on his "Theories of Acoustics" .

While a very unusual method of scraping of the top is mentioned, it is not discussed at length, and a detailed discussion of the tops is likely published elsewhere.

However, he discussed orienting the BACK with the growth grain side up on the bass side, and the treble side of the BACK with the growth grain side down.

I don't quite know what to make of this theory, however, I think it may be incorrect. However, if he scraped the top so that the grain lines were thicker than the wood between them, then perhaps the grain lines on his tops do actually transmit the sound. This article does not mention his carefull studies of the old Italian Makers.

I liked this entire thread very much and learned a lot from everyone's posts: primarily, where to get tonewood for my first violin. I plan on using quality woods for the first violin onward as a result of reading this topic, given the small price of the wood relative to the immense investment of time in making a violin.

Here is the newspaper article about Tazewell B. Amiss. If I find a more detailed discussion of his methods and theories of carving the top and back, I will post links to that on here later:

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn84026749/1904-05-15/ed-1/seq-26.pdf

I found pictures of a violin that he made! It is an early one, No. 10, and has a one-piece back, so perhaps he hadn't figured out his up/down back theory yet. I wonder if the underside of the top has ridges consisting of the woodgrain lines:

http://ebay.superlot.ru/?s=item&id=320955821179