base bars

April 23, 2010 at 11:17 AM ·

Ruben,

While some of the earliest violins, and some of their predecessors may have had integral (carved in) bass bars, today that feature is almost always a sign of a cheap commercially produced instrument, often 19th century Bohemian, as you've suggested yours is.  Planing away the original bar and replacing it with a properly fit bar might improve the sound of your instrument but should be considered in light of the whole picture-arching, graduation, etc.  This would require the attention of a skilled violin maker and the cost could easily exceed the value of the instrument, even if optimally repaired.

Doug

April 24, 2010 at 01:13 PM ·

Even if the violin is a lesser Saxon fiddle, shaving down the carved bar, and replacing it with an applied one, won't necessarily improve the sound.  The if integral bar is nicely finished, and seems structurally sound, there is no reason to worry. 

I agree that plate thickness might be a bigger issue.

If the bar is simply a short flap of wood near the ffs, then be concerned.

April 24, 2010 at 02:16 PM ·

This method of using the top wood to create an integrated bass bar is not uncommon in a German violin of the period from that area. Usually the work is very quick and unfinished, so that you can see the gouge marks in the wood of underside of the belly and also on the bass bar. When the top is off and the belly inverted, the height of the bass bar at its highest point, usually in the center, is the same as the plane of the original wood. In modern violin making, we still observe this limitation in bass bars that are fitted afterward. If the violin doesn't sound good, the top is probably too thick, and you might find that the ribs are also thick, which has a deadening effect on the sound.

My teacher once told us that the reason we now use a separate, fitted bar is because someone way back when let his attention wander and forgot to leave wood for the bar, so he had to fit one afterward. Done well, there is no reason a violin with an integrated bar can't sound good.

August 5, 2012 at 11:32 PM · I have seen a number of old violins with integral bass bars; some very short and others the normal length. Why do we call them cheap when both tops are built by a machine or hand carved? I am trying to think of a negative thing on this type of bass bar!!!!

On the positive side:

1 It never comes unglued.

2 It is the identical wood of the top so would shrink or swell at the same rate.

3 The upper and lower ends of the bar could not be undercut and have the top bent down to meet the bar as described by some luthiers.

This last practice I have read about seems to defeat the puropse of trying to tune the upper plate. The bar probably causes the top to warp slightly at either end so that the instrument is put under strain and must leave a slight gap where the ribs and top should meet to be glued. The ribs would have to give a bit so now when the back goes on it must give some too!

Just some of my thoughts as I read different opinions on this subject.

I find this site interesting and I have fashioned a few violins by both methods but I don't find any difference.

Gary

August 5, 2012 at 11:35 PM · I have seen a number of old violins with integral bass bars; some very short and others the normal length. Why do we call them cheap when both tops are built by a machine or hand carved? I am trying to think of a negative thing on this type of bass bar!!!!

On the positive side:

1 It never comes unglued.

2 It is the identical wood of the top so would shrink or swell at the same rate.

3 The upper and lower ends of the bar could not be undercut and have the top bent down to meet the bar as described by some luthiers.

This last practice I have read about seems to defeat the puropse of trying to tune the upper plate. The bar probably causes the top to warp slightly at either end so that the instrument is put under strain and must leave a slight gap where the ribs and top should meet to be glued. The ribs would have to give a bit so now when the back goes on it must give some too!

Just some of my thoughts as I read different opinions on this subject.

I find this site interesting and I have fashioned a few violins by both methods but I don't find any difference.

Gary

August 7, 2012 at 01:13 PM · Ruben,

It is a major restoration and the sound will change for sure. If done well it may improve, depending on other acoustic properties of the box. Can be quite costly and the results may not be satisfactory. Your best bet is to take it to an experienced and reputable luthier for inspection.

August 7, 2012 at 05:47 PM · Taking into account del Gesu's disposition, he probably was not too particular about bass bar angle. However, today that does not matter for any practical purpose. All del Gesu's had their bass bars replaced with stronger modern ones. I have never seen or heard of one that still sports an original bar. This was an adaptation to ever increasing string tensions through 19th-20th century. Fitting a bar exactly parallel to grain is not such a good idea, because it creates crack prone areas in the soft grain right outside of the bar. Usually bass bars are fit proportionate to the width of the bouts, so there is some grain crossing inward towards the upper bout.

August 6, 2013 at 07:33 AM · Hi, i was researching about bass bar and was wondering whether do luithers prefer matching the same kind of grain density of spruce to the belly OR they would prefer matching the same wood species, ie Eng. Belly & Eng. bass bar?

Any comments?

August 6, 2013 at 03:16 PM · I had an old Klingenthal violin a while back... the integral bar was too slender and the top was distorting. I had my luthier fit a new bar at reasonable cost, but the stress caused a small f hole crack. It did improve the sound, especially bass notes. I would not replace the bar unless absolutely necessary. Like "boot" or through-neck fiddles where neck and block are a single piece, there are certain advantages to simpler, cheaper construction.

August 6, 2013 at 06:44 PM · A new bass bar is a rather common operation. Many older violins tend to need new bass bars - even Hill and Vuillaume shop bass bars are considered outdated and inappropriate for serious performance these days.

A new bass bar should not cause cracks to appear in your violin.

Of course, a new bass bar from most big name luthiers costs upwards of $1,500, so it would probably be an inappropriate investment for less expensive instruments.

August 6, 2013 at 07:35 PM · In the 1700s, integral bass bars, through necks and no corner blocks were not a "cheap" form of construction, but rather a regional style, high quality violins of both types were made. But by the second half of the 1800s, integral bass bars etc etc came to be used on cheaper instruments, hence the bad reputation, a reputation undeserved for genuine 1700s violins with integral bars etc.