Very Practical but Unused Scale Fingering

October 27, 2009 at 10:54 PM ·

With the "normal" fingering for scales, it's only the the Ab (or G#) and A that has a different fingering isn't it? So there not too much more to memorise.

Personally, I think you can do any fingering you like really, selecting the most suitable one for the music you're playing. It's also a good idea to practise different fingerings.

The fingering you gave looks like it could be good for fast passages. The normal fingering shifts up 1,2,1, which would give you smoother shifts. I can see benefits of both.

October 27, 2009 at 11:23 PM ·

Greetings,

actually there is a quite well known alternative to the so called `Paginin fingering` which starts scales on the second finger.  The system was firts set out in detail by , I think,  Yampolski.  Like yours,  The scales start on the first finger.  One veyr good reason for doing this is that it avoids the semitone when string crossing.   This is an aspect of playing that Szigeti was extremely strict about and wrote about it extensively in his books.  It is a point that seems largely forgotten by many of todays player sand I actually find it quite annoying at times to hear a less than lyrical passage simply because a player has crosse don a semitone when a backward extension or other psotion would sound so much better.   Nonetheless,  the Paginin scales has much to reocmmend it and although one should try and avoid the semitone crossing it is always necessray to practice things that are difficult rather than running away from them.  In orchestra we do not alewyas have the luxury of avoidance.... In space noone can hear you scream.

Just two my mind,  there are two problems with your fingering:  first, in using large shifts which although helpful in fast runs are not as smooth as smaller steps on semitones.  It is especially problematic comin down on the e string.  It is extrmely rare to find someone shftng safetly and consistently down on the e string using a fourth finger as you suggest.  The key to shifting is using the sallest posisbe distance between the finger sused.  The pattern yu suggest is not practical unde rperformance pressure even if yo can sort of get it working in the practice room.

The other problem is the quality of sound.  Ysaye advocate a slightly diffenret version of the Paginin fingering in which the shifting wa sleft to the e string in order to keep the lowest and most brilliant part of the violin gong as long a spossible.   Using such high postions early will not produce the best sound form the instrument.

Nonetheless,  after one has established one pattern for scales (the tradition ones have stood the test of time) it is very importnat to practice the kind of things you suggest.  One has to be able to do precisley what yu advocate and t is always good t see someone coming up with alternatives to experiment with.

Cheers,

Buri

October 28, 2009 at 04:28 AM ·

 Steven,

Not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but if you start on 2nd finger you ALWAYS change strings on the semi-tone.

Scott

October 28, 2009 at 05:58 AM ·

Buri, I'm so glad you mentioned the half-step conundrum regarding string crossings and scales.  I just thought I was supposed to practice them that way because this is the hardest way, and if you can make that sound good, you can make any fingering sound good.  I teach it to my students, but I wholeheartedly believe that it is more important that a violinist learn to practice scales with all kinds of fingerings, regularly changing up the half step placement, which more resembles real-life situations in both solo and orchestral repertoire.  You need to know all kinds of fingerings to play symphonic repertoire, and what better way to do it than during scale time?   

You are so right, though, about the general tastelessness of unnecessarily splitting up half steps.  It reminds me of a cracking voice.

...I really hate Flesch scales.  My favorite trick is crawling up the fingerboard by half-steps, Milstein style.

October 28, 2009 at 06:43 AM ·

Greeings,

Scott

.>Not sure if we're talking about the same thing, but if you start on 2nd finger you ALWAYS change strings on the semi-tone.

Yes, I know. I ddn`t write anything that suggeted otherwise.  It`s outside the context of scale exercises that its a good idea to avoid them.

Cheers,

Buri

October 28, 2009 at 07:44 AM ·

As others have mentioned, there's a justification for playing scales like this (this pattern is for Bb and higher):

2123 4123 4123 -1234 12-12 -1234
4321 -4321 4321 -3214 3214 3213 (2)

With twenty-four notes in the scale going up and going down, it can be practiced in a "velocity study" in maintaining a consistent bow speed, but changing the fingering speed to play 1, 2, 3, 4, 6, 8, 12 and 24 notes per whole bow.

There are some variations...coming down you can do 4-432 1-321 instead of 4321 -4321.

With a lot of my students, I give them these fingering sequences along with a single sheet of the tetrachord patterns for major and natural/harmonic/melodic minor and have them figure out the scales themselves rather than using the Flesch. It leads to very interesting discussions in lessons about pattern recognition and tuning...

October 28, 2009 at 10:43 AM ·

Thanks Marc, that sounds great. But I'll need a little work on yours Gene .

October 28, 2009 at 02:58 PM ·

 Stephen,

Right, I re-read your post.

Embrace the semitone! 

Scott

October 28, 2009 at 08:57 PM ·

Buri,

Thanks for the relevant you make. Yes the shift is harder in my fingering but the string-crossing in a whole note. Which is what drove me to this fingering.
Can you explain what is the: " 

`Paginin fingering` which starts scales on the second finger.  The system was firts set out in detail by , I think,  Yampolski"

 Emily, 

"...I really hate Flesch scales.  My favorite trick is crawling up the fingerboard by half-steps, Milstein style."

Would you mind giving an illustration of your trick?

Gene,

Thanks for your fingering. I believe that is the Galamian fingering.

My teacher gave a variation from Julliard which works starting from A. It goes like this:

21-12 3412 3412 - 1234 12-12 3432 - 321-4 3214 ...

October 28, 2009 at 10:04 PM ·

Greetings,

the `Paginini fingering` is what the scale starting on 2nd finger used to be called.

Yampolski sets out a scale sytem beginning on 1st finger in a book called `Principles of Violin Fingering.` I think its out of print.  It wa sold when I wa sa boy.....   The idea of strating scale son first finger could also be found in a very small book by a guy called Wolf which was a series of exercises for warming up before palying scales.  My teacher at that time (John Ludlow) was very keen on it and gae a copy to all his studnets.( Typicakl generosity on his part.)

I actually did pose the question why the first finger scale system wasn`t use dmore often once,  on this site.   The number of answers received was slightly less than one.

Cheer,s

Buri

October 29, 2009 at 03:31 AM ·

Buri, I remember skimming over that thread in a hurry once.  I thought, "Why would anyone want to play all their scales with only their first finger (other than for the pure hell of shifting a lot)?  That Buri, he's finally lost his mind."  And then I went fishing.  I'm sorry I didn't take a closer read, or I would have probably understood it a bit better.

October 29, 2009 at 07:47 PM ·

Right on Marc!

I use that first fingering for Bb and higher, and the following ones for the ones starting lower:

G (version 1, shift up on A)

0210 1234 1234 12-12 3412 -1234
-4-432 1-432 1032 1032 1032 1021 (0)

G (version 2, shift up on D)

0210 1234 12-12 3412 3412 -1234
-4-432 1-432 1032 1032 1032 1021 (0)

Ab

1012 3412 3412 -1234 12-12 -1234
4321 -4321 4321 -2143 2143 2102 (1)

A

21-12 3412 3412 -1234 12-12 -1234
4321 -4321 4321 -2143 2143 21-13 (2)

The twenty-four note versions are just so handy for the bow distribution exercises I just stuck with them all the time. :)