Bach Chaconne...what tempo?

September 13, 2009 at 04:32 AM ·

Joseph Szigeti's book On the Violin discusses the opening in some detail, with various insights mostly from editors of the sheet music.

The most convincing opening I ever heard was from Sergiu Luca, who played it on a baroque Seraphin at Wigmore Hall.  He emphasized the faster sarabande rhythm and started quietly, allowing the variations to build in volume and complexity.  His recording is OK but didn't have quite the shock value of hearing it that way.

If you keep the dotted patterns light and crisp you should be able to keep the faster tempo without it sounding too fast.

September 13, 2009 at 03:27 PM ·

 I think if you listen to good harpsichord and lute players you will find they tend to play chaconnes a little quicker and breezier than the Dm chaconne is usually played on the violin.  I think over the years players have tried to milk more and more sound and drama out of this piece, resulting in a slower pace.  That said, one must consider the character of the particular piece, the challenges of the instrument and the abilities of the player.  So a little slower (not a lot) might make sense and might still work.

September 13, 2009 at 04:10 PM ·

I saw Lara St. John play this at our local Borders just about the time she issued her first CD (which she autographed and I bought for my newbie violinist granddaughter, who was along with me, so I don't have it to refer to). But I was entranced by how relaxed her performance was and I recal thinking at the time that it was also helpful for the audience to be able to savor it instead of being amazed. I concluded at that time that one can play it at any tempo one feels at the time and vary tempos of the variations to taste. Why not?

I think Szigeti's book has terrific insights on all the movements in the 2nd Partita, in fact, I have marked one of my copies with his suggestions - and I like them.

Andy

September 13, 2009 at 06:02 PM ·

I prefer Mr. Luca's interpretations and tempi also.  I don't know if he's still doing this, but when I was at Rice, he performed the whole of the unaccompanied sonatas and partitas over two evenings, each year, and from memory, of course.  Quite a feat!  He is said to play the works like a gypsy, but I love them and have his recording.

The problem with this, if I understand it correctly, is that the metronome was only invented in Beethoven's era, and since there were no recordings (well, no electricity) when the works were written, there is really no way of knowing what tempi to take, however the depth of scholarship.  One may only go with the way you feel, given the interpretative issues involved, and that may vary from one performance to the next.  But you cannot really be demonstratively wrong, and I wonder if the tempi of all these works were not, in fact, much slower than contemporary interpretations.

September 15, 2009 at 07:07 PM ·

The 3/4 mesure indication is probably not from Bach  and erroneous .The mesure unit  was the  whole  or half note  most of the  time and the time signature was  simply noted  O or 3 . The tactus (our nowaday  beat) was based on physiological functions (pulse,respiration,walk) (approximately 50 to 80 beat per minute).

September 15, 2009 at 07:35 PM ·

http://www.jsbach.net/images/chaconne.html

?

September 16, 2009 at 10:25 AM ·

You may have presented an impossible question here, but worthy of great philosophical consideration.

Ms. Sunday strikes a good note in the explaination of what would be the proper tempo. It seems that in many of the solo violin movements they can tend to be either insanely precise, or too relaxed in disproportion of the overall scope and mood of the sonate or partita as a whole. In the partitas, we have some idea of what is expected since they are dances. The sonates are a little more difficult to pinpoint as to tempo. I have yet to actually find an artist that has produced a "bad" interpretation of the works, the Chaccone being the best example that they usually present.

Like many great works of art, everyone has their own opinions and interpretations that suit them. The Chaconne is (in my view) the culmination of all that is presented in the entire collection of solo sonataes and partitas. As for what tempo it should be performed at, one should consider the mood of the chord structure and the shortest note value that would make it sound too fast by the time it was reached.

I have always taken a historical approach to the Sonates and Partitas, disregarding strict tempi (but retaining a sense of continuity), and adopting a more improvisatory attitude (like in recititive fashion, in some places). One could see the correlation between how jazz performers play a certain line and then if one was to adopt the techinque to the Solo works of Bach, they would be getting very close to what may be the correct way of performing them. I think there is often too much musicological disagreement over the theoretical aspects of how they should be played and not enough education presented as to the historical aspects of the baroque playing techniques that Bach himself employed. This often is easier said than done.

The works are open to great individuality of interpretation that often are so personal that explaining it is difficult, if not impossible, particularly if one does not hear an example. I do not want to give a particular example, as I have yet to find the violinist that has produced any real "authentic" interpretation to date. Most interpretation can only be based on what has already been done and they contain a great deal of modern elements even if the violinist is performing it in a "baroque" style. It is true that there is nothing new under the sun.

Yet you will find a multitude of opinions out there in the muck. I cannot see where any music critic (whom normally do not even play violin) could ever say that one interpretation is correct and another is not. This individuality makes the works truely what they are. We are still investigating whether or not the chords should be played broken or in unison. Who knows?

My advice is to always approach the works with an open mind and forget everything that you learned about strict tempos in Baroque music.Consider the elements of musical interpretation, or the technical aspects, such as tempi, bowings and fingerings, as secondary in nature to interpretation.

 Interpretation of the solo works are akin to painting a work of art. Step out of the Hall of Academia  and you will soon produce colours and textures that will make the music alive. With proper use of  shading and contrast, the music will produce images of many sorts in the mind of the listener. This has been the hallmark of all of the great players who have had the advantage of recording the works. They will always play them slightly different when they perform them in public, so this inclines me to believe that there is no hard rules (except good taste) when it comes to the interpretation of the solo Sonates and Partitias.

September 16, 2009 at 10:57 AM ·

Thanks  Stephen for  the Bach 's manuscript. My mistake , the notation seems from Bach.

However , I would add some remarks

Violin partitas were written rather lately in Bach's life in a period au great change where the old usage of   notation 0 (ternary:division by 3 of any value) and C (binary:division by two of any value)  coexisted with  a new notation  still valid now ,but the significance was more or less  forgotten a nd the mixture of both system lead to confusion.In  the first Sonate   the presto  noted 3/8 with 2 groups of 6 eight notes per bar ,same thing in  the corrente noted 3/4 of the first partita.

September 16, 2009 at 12:22 PM ·

To put Jerald's good points a bit more pithily, there are lots of different ways to perform the Chaconne, each of which shows a different aspect of it and few of which can be said to be "correct" in any sense, particularly with regard to the tempi.  While it may be possible to play the piece in a manner that sounds too slow or too fast, there is a great deal of room for interpretation.  Figure out what works/sounds good to you and go with it.  If the A-415 crowd tells you what you are doing is "historically incorrect", ignore them.  Enjoy playing this wonderful piece!

September 17, 2009 at 11:46 AM ·

Tom's advise is certainly the best one more especially as the so called 415 is not a historical truth however history might be useful to understand and interpret some old piece

September 18, 2009 at 01:47 AM ·

I have both the Heifetz and the Hahn recordings of the Chaconne. Heifetz blasts through it in under 13:00. Hahn plays it in 17:42. As long as you're between those two I think you'll be OK.

December 28, 2009 at 10:45 PM ·

Thank you all for your responses. Tempo aside for a moment, what are you opinions on fingerings and positions? I've heard people play in 4th position on the G-string, off the string at the frog, and I've heard someone else do the same passage in first position in the middle of the bow. How do you find a balance between color consistency and style, and hwo do you reconcile them to be consistent throughout the whole piece?

December 29, 2009 at 12:57 AM ·

I like both Heifetz and Hahns for different reasons. Milsteins is quite nice too!  It's really a personal matter, I'm leaning toward the slower tempi though, because it leaves room to really express ones self, and from a technical stand point, it makes playing the chords a heck of a lot easier. My tempos may vary slightly but not more than 12bpm. the very beginning of the d major section I start a little slower since I always get this feeling that it's really a reflective part of the piece, I tiry to pick it back up before the sixteenth notes, just to break things up a bit. I think Hahn's recording of measures 229 to the end are a bit slow, but it's a very interesting effect, I prefer milsteins Interpretation here.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JdEFedswEX0

This is probably one of the most personal pieces you're ever going to play. After you've learned this piece insofar as notes. Get to yourself and really play around with it, forget about the page and see where your artistic vision takes you.

December 29, 2009 at 01:25 AM ·

 Hi,

There is an Heifetz Masterclass where he teaches the chaconne to a student. It is very interesting and worthwhile. Be sure to check it out. I think its on youtube

December 29, 2009 at 05:48 AM ·

Concerning fingerings: Like they say in NY stay in first position; that's where the money is.

Seriously, low position fingerings in general make sense in Bach. Color changes between strings give interest.

December 29, 2009 at 06:15 PM ·

I believe that tempo choice is a matter of the performance's integrity.  Therefore it is personal to your individual performance.  It should fit and complement all the details of your personal performance.  The way to find it is relatively simple: Try various tempi and choose the one that pleases you most.  Be open to the possibility that as you may, as time passes, make changes in your performance, so the right tempo for it might also change.