C# Dead Note on the A String

January 23, 2009 at 12:26 AM ·

Jerry, it is inevitable that violins all have a different timbre and color on each different note.  C# is a common one both on the A and G string.  There are many others too.  The open strings are as resonant and vibrant as one can possibly get on the violin and every violinist strives to reach that clarity on every single note.  I'm not the best person to explain the physics of the violin but physics plays a huge role in the resonance of certain notes. 

That said the quality of the violin plays an equally important role in tone.  I've never met a Chinese violin that could match an italian or german instrument in tone, this is a widly accepted fact.  So don't take it as being your fault.

January 23, 2009 at 02:14 PM ·

Do the obvious things first. Be sure the bridge is in the right place. Then try a slight adjustment of the soundpost. If that doesn't help, look at the length of the tailhanger (used to be called "gut," but they're mostly black nylon now). Turning the adjusting screws one way or the other to move the tailpiece backward or forward will make a change one way or another. By the way, it is not the position of the tailpiece, but the "free" or vibrating length of the nylon that is important. You say your violin is new. If it is very new, it should be checked for open seams, as these sometimes open during shipment. If your chinrest is the kind that clamps on the side of the tailpiece, adjustments can often affect the sound. You might even try a type the fits over the tailpiece, if you are comfortable with it. Little things often have big consequences on the violin.

RJ (Bob) Spear

January 23, 2009 at 03:48 PM ·

I would suggest you start first by putting on a different A string, the same or brand or a different one, and compare the sound produced. Then go on to check the bridge height and the nut height, and check the fingerboard for any tiny high spot around or aboce C#. After that, proceed with the list given above. As to fingering, take as a concept that your fingers will sit firmly on the fingerboard wood with the string in between. Sue

January 23, 2009 at 09:10 PM ·

Maybe it's your bowing. Change the A string first. Some violins respond differently. Other's may ring more. Also it could be your finger placement on the fingerboard stopping the vibration of the string to ring?

January 23, 2009 at 09:25 PM ·

my guess is that this is a destructive wolf tone.  try adjusting the soundpost.

January 23, 2009 at 09:47 PM ·

All the ideas above have validity. It is also possible that there is an irregularity in the fingerboard just above the C# that causes a problem - might need to be shaved down a bit.

Fingered notes "ring" because of the overtones that accompany the bowed fundamental tone.  Every violin has a different "amplification" spectrum, so it is entirely possible that the vibrations of the C# on your violin are relatively dead.  Violinists use vibrato to "equilibrate" the live and dead-ish notes to achieve "their" personal sound. That is one of the reasons it can be difficult to aclimate to a strange instrument - or even a strange performance venue.

Selecting different strings may improve the sound quality.

Regarding the inferiority of Chinese violins, I have played (a very few) Chinese violins and cellos that I actually thought were ancient Italians until I looked at the label - not cheap Chinese, the one violin that was so exceptio0nal had been bought in China for $1,500 - so it would be much, much more elsewhere.

Andy

January 23, 2009 at 10:56 PM ·

Jerry, since you're talking about how long the C#  "rings" after lifting the bow, some of this is normal. Whether it's beyond normal, I can't say without trying the violin.

The simplified technical explanation goes like this:

The C# tends to be the loudest note on the violin. One reason it's the loudest is that the body of the violin happens to do a really good job of absorbing the energy from the string on that note. Because the violin it taking so much of the energy,  the string dies quickly when the bowing stops.

If you had a violin made from a solid piece of wood (which would hardly make any sound at all), the strings would ring for a long time. Since you've played guitar, it's like the difference in sustain between an acoustic and a solid body. And since the violin doesn't have frets like a guitar, the string termination will be kind of "fuzzy" when you're fingering, compared to the crisp termination of the open strings, and the crisp termination you get with a fret.

So there could be problem with the instrument, or you might just have a really good ear, and notice normal things which other people don't notice so much.

You may be able to minimize the difference in "sustain" between the C# and other notes with some of the techniques mentioned above. Aside from experimenting with different strings or the chinrest, they're probably not things you should try yourself.

January 24, 2009 at 06:05 PM ·

Take the violin to your luthier.  Only someone who can hear the violin, see the setup, and try adjusting different aspects can help you.  As you can see, there are several possible explanations, and you cannot try all the things necessary.

January 24, 2009 at 06:43 PM ·

Give the pads of your fingers a chance to also condition. The more they do the better the notes will sound. Something to bear in mind while you have your new violin looked over by a luthier.

Aloha,

Royce

January 26, 2009 at 04:21 PM ·

Thanks to all who replied to this thread. I just got my post adjuster in the mail and will play with it to see if I can tweek the tone a bit. I can see everyone now going "woa" since I am a beginner at the violin. It is not like it is a thousand dollar violin I am about to destroy. 

I did make some checks from the advice I received, the fingerboard has 1mm scoup and looks good.

I never heard of a wolf tone, but I can hear this sort of howl out of this violin at times and sometimes the note getting flat in pitch when I bow near the frog.

The C# theory of being loud could be an issue with this violin where it resonates the wood and chokes the note after bowing. Might sound strange, if I hum in the f hole, the violin resonates  around a C# pitch and may be causing a dissonance with that note. That again might be a wolf tone that was mentioned or just a joke because probably all beginners violins sound like howling wolves. Ha!

I am learning through practice about how much rosin to use, but seems like the cheap rosin I got with the violin does not last and I have to rosin the bow pretty frequently.

I will reply when I make some adjustments to let you know what I did and if it helped.

Thanks again for all the great advice,

Jerry

February 3, 2009 at 06:53 PM ·

I have three violins, a Gliga which is dull sounding and rather boxy, a cheap and cheerful Stentor Student II which is brighter but nasal and a lovely German fiddle which is well balanced except for a few notes on the A string. In fact, just about every violin I have tried, including some quite expensive ones, seem to have the A string as a weak point. Is this common even with high quality, very expensive instruments?

I find certain notes on the A string have a very high incidence of 1k hertz exaggeration which makes a kind of "whah", boxy sound and stands out like a sore thumb, compared with the G and D strings which seem much more even and balanced, with a good even distribution of high and lower frequency overtones.

I also find that above F sharp the A string is reluctant to speak compare with the other strings and have to consciously produce more bow pressure and speed for these. Is this unusual?

February 4, 2009 at 09:29 PM ·

Leonard, I have not noticed what you are talking about (1 kHz exaggeration) on any instrument I have, and definitely not on the finest instruments I've played (storied Strad). But it is possible that you have special hearing characteristics. Violins have very "mountainous" spectra, with arrangements of the peaks pretty much determining what the instruments sound like and how hard or difficult they are to play (sound) well.

But i suppose what you describe may be why I have tended to reject 90% of the $1,000 to $1,500 violins I have tested for other people. I just never tried to figure it out, but my initial tests are 2 octaves up the G string and for evenness across the strings; if that works then I run a test with parts of various selections. The early rejects occur after the "initial" of tests. The hard part might be selecting THE ONE of the remaining 3 violins after going through 30 of them.

Andy

February 5, 2009 at 12:31 AM ·

Hi Andy,

Well it might not be precisely 1k hertz but it is certainly a peak of mid range frrequency response which a huge number of violins I've heard have particularly at points on the A string. It is very difficult to describe such a sound or tone but I know it when I hear it. Once I owned a lovely old Hopf violin which I stupidly sold. It had a fabulous sound right throughout the range. No violin I have tried since can match it, and I think my ears are a bit over sensitve to this somewhat boxy sound on some instruments (epecially the cheaper range) which really offends my ears!

I also recognise that most violins that sound frankly not very nice under the ear when you are playing them, and also sound rather different some distance away. Your left ear being so close to the f hole can exaggerate the low and mid frequencies unduly. Another thing I have noticed is that chesap and nasty violins nearly always have a tinny sound and long sustain when you pluck the strings mandolin style, whereas more refined instruments seem to have a more dampened pizz sound.

February 6, 2009 at 04:05 PM ·

Leonard,

It is my understanding that good violin strings are made to damp the ringing, to prevent interference that will otherwise occur when they are bowed.  It could be that the cheap violins you plucked had cheap mono-filament steel strings.

I suspect you have (figuratively) been picking up the 90% of the violins - the ones I've rejected. And now you know why.

There is another problem with violin playing - if the left ear is really a lot closer to the violin top than the left, there can be 18db of additional gain in the left air compared to the right. If the violin is played loudly, the overdriven left ear will hear the note sharper than the right ear - so not only will there be an apparent buzz - caused by hearing the note (some percentage) out of tune - but there will be a tendency to play flat, because the more strongly hearing ear is hearing the note sharper than it actually is heard by a distant listener.

Until I learned how to compensate for this disparity in intonation, I even had trouble tuniing to the orchestra's oboe, thinking the spread in intonation I hard was the oboe's fault and not my own. I once did an experiment, providing a wax ear plug (for their left ears) to all the violinists in our communiity orchestra - it was amazing how the sections' intonation improved INSTANTLY. SO it's not my problem alone. It was so striking, that the concertmaster started using left-ear plugs for all her students.

Try it!

Andy