Notating open strings (vs. harmonics, and in double-stops)
Howdy! I'm a composer (guitar player, but no orchestral strings) writing some string parts, and want to specifically indicate that certain notes in a score are to be played on open strings. But looking online, at Blatter's Instrumentation and Orchestration, and in a few other places, it seems like the practices of doing this are somewhat inconsistent. I see that the little "o" is often added over the note, but it seems that this is also sometimes used to indicate a natural harmonic (the note indicating the pitch to be heard, with the player left to figure out how to effect this).
So my question for you string-playing folks is how this will be interpreted by the performer. In the same piece, I do have some actual natural harmonics. If the harmonics themselves are notated clearly (with diamond-shaped noteheads where the finger should be placed and a parenthesized notehead above, on the actual pitch to be heard), coupled with the fact that notes with "o" above them only occur on pitches where it would pretty much have to imply an open string, will this be enough to distinguish the two, and make sense?
On a related note, I have a few double- and triple-stops in which one of the notes is to be played on an open string while the others are to be stopped. To aid the performer in quickly figuring out how to form these chords, it would be nice to indicate which of the notes are to be played on the open string. Is there a standard convention for notating this?
Thanks!
Howie
Replies (18)
Hi Buri,
Thanks for the response, that's pretty much what I thought - straightforward and simple. What do you think is the best way to indicate open strings as part of a multiple-stop chord, in which some of the notes are open and others are stopped? Or is it generally so obvious in such cases how the chord should be fingered that this is usually not an issue, and open strings are not indicated?
Thanks again,
Howie
I have noticed that harmonics are typically notated with a perfect small circle and open strings are notated with more of an oval shape like, 0.
Greetings,
Howie, the chord thing is a bit more complex. Suppose you have a triple stop( d,a,f#) and you leave it without any direction. Depending on the ocntext the player may make a decision to either use two open strings or a double stop fifth on the g,d and a strings. If you feel this ambivalence is present and you really want the lower psoition chord ten you would be well advised to write the (two) ohs above the note. Better safe than sorry.
Cheers,
Buri
Stopping notes in a chord is very much a guitar thing. I took up the guitar a few years ago and it was definitely a technique that was foreign to me. Violinists don't think about chord structure usually. In an orchestral setting they usually think "what's the easiest way to play those 2 or 3 notes" or "can I just play the top notes and my stand partner play the bottom." Violinists generally tend to avoid playing chords whenever possible. So if they can get away with only playing like 2 of the 4 notes in an orchestra setting, they will.
If you're aiming for a specific type of sound I would recommend writing the strings you want the chord played on (like if you want lower strings vs higher strings) and then maybe add a suggested fingering over it so they know what you're aiming for.
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I think I'll go with just putting a little "o" above each of the open-string notes in the multiple-stop chords. I think from the context in which they're appearing (immediately following a number of open-string arpeggios) and the chords themselves, it should be fairly clear which strings are meant to be open, but I think this will help clear it up just in case.
Thanks again for the tips!
Howie
Greetings,
I respectfully disagree with much of the above post. Violnists who have reached a sufficiently high level to play professionally have usually excellent control of double stopping and chords plus the mandatory experience of playing the Bach solo sonatas, Bruch concerto and so on.
What guides which part to play in orchestra is neither laziness or incompetence but rather an issue of ensemble or blenging sound. In the former case amateur orchestral tend to try to play whole chords but the sweep of the bow across four strings or two two orwhatever, by so many individual players promotres bad ensemble. It is actually bad technique . The issue of blending cocnerns the profesisonal payers sensitivity to not having a specific part stand out. Condcuters too are well awra of this. Bruno Walter had a quite fixed rule about chords in Mozart. The outer player was to play only the e stirng while the lower player was to play the other two. The reason? Today@s e strings are simply too bright and he found a very good solutionb that helped ot blend the sound.
If you wnat a good exmaple of an ambivalent chord go to IMSLP and check out Greminiani`sd unaccompanied violin sonata. In bar 14 you will find two open stirngs notate din the chord although I don`t know if this was the composers intention or the editor. A modern violinst might well have been tempted to play it in 3rd position across four strings. For tme, the open strings sound better. In general I follow the approahc of Misltein who tended to use openb strings more freely than a lot of other players because they help the violin to resonate. the modern e can be horrendous if used injudiciously though.....
Cheers,
Buri
"Violinists don't think about chord structure usually." (We don't?? My theory professors would not be glad to hear that.)
" In an orchestral setting they usually think "what's the easiest way to play those 2 or 3 notes" (Actually we're thinking how can I play those notes so that they blend or so that they make melodic sense) or "can I just play the top notes and my stand partner play the bottom." (That's not for individuals to decide, it's up to the composer, conductor, and concertmaster)
"Violinists generally tend to avoid playing chords whenever possible." (Only in the case of orchestral playing. Violinists generally are expected to be able to play chords in every other kind of performance).
".. So if they can get away with only playing like 2 of the 4 notes in an orchestra setting, they will." (There's no need to get away with it, it's not cheating, it's the rule to only play 2 notes of a 4-note chord)
While some of these things may be happening in a high school orchestra or an amateur community group they do not apply to a professional orchestra. Fortunately even my high school orchestra director knew how to address this issue. Each orchestra might be a little different but there is a general rule about this sort of thing and it is made clearly known by the conductor and concertmaster as to how chords are divided within the ensemble. Unless specifically indicated string players never play all the notes of a chord. The general rules are:
Double stops - outside player plays top note, inside player plays bottom note.
Triple stops - One player plays 2 notes, the other player plays one note. This is indicated either by the composer's fingerings, the concertmaster, or it may be completely obvious by the nature of the notes themselves.
4 note chords - Outside player plays top 2, inside player plays bottom 2.
My response was in regards to orchestra chord playing only. Not soloistic. I would have to disagree that there are "rules." The only rules are things that composer specifically notates. Technically, if the composer writes a 4 note chord, they are expecting a four note chord sound coming from each violinist unless otherwise specified. Most string instrumentalists will opt for the spliting it up with your standpartner option becuase it is easier. Those are just the "rules" when you do split it up with your standpartner.
My point being, if the original poster wants a specific sound coming from each violinist, he needs to indicate that all 3 or 4 notes should be played by each player and list possibilities for fingerings.
Danielle, I'm sure it happens as you say in many orchestras around the country. But the "do it however you feel like it" notion does not apply to any professional orchestras in which I play. I've seen conductors and concertmasters call out inexperienced players for this.
No, no. You misunderstand. In most orchestras if you see a section of 4 note chords, usually the section leader will decide ok this is how we're going to split up playing the notes. Technically, the composer wanted 4 notes coming from each player. However, for most pieces it doesn't make much difference beucase you will get all 4 notes sounding therefore completing the chord.
This is just accepted orchestra practice. It's easier to play 2 notes than four. It's not play what you feel. It's play what the section agrees upon. Which is why I told the original poster that if he WANTS that very specific sound, he needs to say so. Otherwise, the section will go for the easier route.
Greetings,
>usually the section leader will decide ok this is how we're going to split up playing the notes.
I suppose you culd suggest it is ths way by default in that if yu are not doing what the concertmaster is doing you are wrong. But Marina is correct. A professional player who clearly knows what she is talkign about.
Cheers,
Buri
some reasons for dividing chords in orchestra playing:
Anyone who plays the violin understands that it is almost impossible to play a 4-note chord without slightly rolling the bow on the strings. Therefore, the notes will not start exactly at the same time. This is one of the limitations of violin. It just can not play a 4-note chord with all 4 notes coming out simultaneously. It might be okay in solo playing, but when a whole section of violinists are playing together, it will create big ensemble problems. The articulation will be messy to say the least.
Generally, the sonority of the chords is what matters the most to the composers. In my experience, most composers would like the players to divide the chords so all notes of the chord could sound simultaneously.
With three-note chords, it is possible to play them together on violin but normally they can not be sustained for a long time, so if you want to hear a a long and sustained chord, the natural solution is to divide the chord.
When violinists play a three-note chord, more force has to be applied at the beginnig of the note, this will result a slight accent on the chord. With a whole section of violinists playing like that, the result might not be attractive.
I read carefully and do not generally misunderstand... unless of course something is not written clearly. In this case you're backtracking Danielle. First you're saying that violinists don't think of chord structure which is a little demeaning to those of us who spend our lives studying music. Then you're saying that standpartners decide between themselves. Then I mention the rules of divisi and then you say there are no rules... except the rules that the section leader comes up with.
I only answer questions when I know the answer.
I said violinist don't USUALLY think of chord structure. It's not demeaning. It's just what happens. Ours is not a chord instrument like the guitar. If you think of the chords in your head while playing, bravo! The original poster did not specify the orchestra that would be playing which is why I put that. Most Joe Shmoe violinsts do not think about chords they are playing the way a guitarist does. What if he's writing this piece for a student orchestra or a local community event?
When did I say that standpartners decide between themselves?
Please tell me where I can find this orchestra rulebook. That would actually be quite handy to have and to pass out to students. There are commonly accepted practices. That's not the same thing as rules. When dividing up chords, the section will mutually agree on whichever is the easiest way to play them divided. Sometimes it's 2/2 sometimes it's 3/1 sometimes the conductor wants the standpartners to double up on a note to emphasize a sounding pitch... I've played several different combinations. You're obviously more experienced with orchestra playing than I am, so I'm sure you have too.
I have never come across an orchestra rulebook. You learn on the job.
I don't mean to offend anyone here, but Danielle, can you tell us just how guitarists think about chord structure? I think you're making a risky generalization when you say that violinists don't think about chord structure. Specifically, you were referring to Joe Schmoe violinists (whatever that means). So, I'm going to make another risky generalization now. Most Joe Schmoe guitarists don't know much about chord structure. They just learn shapes with their hands and associate them with sonorities. To me that is not the same as having knowledge of chord structure. Then again, I have no way to scientifically measure this. I don't pretend to know more than you do, but I've known my fair share of guitarists and violinists and I think violinists tend to be more knowledgeable when it comes to things like chord structure and theory in general.
All this is just my opinion.
The guitar is a chord instrument. It's one of the first things you learn when playing the instrument. On the violin, playing chords is an advanced technique that most beginners don't touch on until much later.
While a guitarist may not know the exact theory behind a "G" chord, they do learn how to recognize the chord shape. It's impossible to play the guitar if one thinks of every single individual note in the chord. Like "ok, now I am going to place a G, a B and a D." Instead they learn "when a clump of notes looks like that, it's a G shape." This is not a skill that violinists usually acquire until much later on (if at all).
In orchestra, the lack of chord recognition does show. Most violinists playing in the average community orchestra have to slow down during chord sections becuase they DO think "ok I need to put a G, B and D down." It's not the instantaneous "G chord" recognition. Plus, you add on it that playing chords on the violin is not as easy as the guitar.
I was not trying to be demeaning when I said the chord shape thing. It's simply just what happens due to the nature of the instrument. It's like how pianists can read two lines of music at once. This is not a skill that a violinist has to develop. We learn to read music horizontally rather than vertically.
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January 22, 2009 at 12:36 AM ·
Greetings,
the o will be perfectly undestood simply because those standing above natural harmonics are not standing above the pitches of theopen strings. You need have no worries on this score.
Cheers,
Buri