Hand position/thumb position in 5th position

September 16, 2008 at 06:07 PM · I've been working on 5th position for a couple of months. Was having the same problem, and my teacher helped me figure out what I was doing wrong: (1) thumb was trying to stay on the side of the neck, so I was having to stretch my fingers too far to reach the fingerboard; (2) elbow needed to move more to the center of my body. When I made those two adjustments, it was better but still felt awkward ... turns out my entire hand was still too low. I raised it about 1/2" higher so that the bottom knuckles (where my fingers are joined to my hand) clear the face of the violin, and now I have just enough reach.

September 16, 2008 at 08:06 PM · Hi Glenda,

So where does your left hand come into contact with the violin (besides thumb)? I have tremendous problem keeping the shape of my curved fingers if I have to put my first finger down, are the base knuckles suppose to touch the body of the violin (where the finger board connects to the body?) i'm so confused.. it's so awkward.

September 16, 2008 at 09:40 PM · I just figured this out last week - someone more experienced than me might have better advice - but I do hope this description helps.

The palm of my left hand is in contact with the ribs of upper bout of the violin (base knuckles are sticking up approximately 1/2" higher than the edge). I just let my thumb "follow" my hand and the pad of my thumb ends up under the neck. I have very small hands (I'm an adult but am about the size of a 12-year-old!) so your thumb will probably end up in a different position than mine. I think the important thing is to get the upper part of your hand high enough that you're not straining to reach the strings.

The only parts of my left hand actually in contact with the violin are the pad of my thumb, the upper part of the palm, and the fingertips when pressing on the strings.

September 16, 2008 at 10:20 PM · Greetings,

its also possible you are making a small error with your handling of the isnturment. As you go up to the higher positions the violin moves a litlte up and to the left. Many violnists, even of an intermediate standard actually do the opposite. Check to see what the scroll of your isnturment is doing...

Cheers,

Buri

September 17, 2008 at 12:13 AM · But Buri, what about Elman? As I understand it, he is very short and has to lower his violin and to the right in order to climb up. Is it just that his technique is utterly idiosyncratic in that respect?

September 17, 2008 at 12:17 AM · I tried positiong my violin a tad to the left and up but I still feel that my hand is in an awkward position. It is not in a stretch per say, but I have difficulty keeping them curve, also my double jointedpinky locks up in this position only!!! Another thing is that I felt like I can't really hear my intonation pass the high e!

September 17, 2008 at 12:51 AM · "Intermediate standard."

September 17, 2008 at 01:31 AM · Greetings,

Charles, I don`t think Elamn played any pieces that requried moving beyond 3rd....(one of my favorite players BTW)

PM as long as you are not doing the movement to the right. Also, now you have red flagged this a sa problem you may need to check for tensing up prior to the shift. this may occur in the neck, base of first finger. thumb or whatever. Its case by case.

Intermediate players are frequently indeterminate.

Cheers.

Buri

September 17, 2008 at 02:33 AM · Buri, you're right that I do tense up a bit because I'm anticipating this shift and usually will feel like "omg, here it comes"... not good. perhaps I should play in position for a bit to really grasp this concept.

Is it normal for a beginner to have difficulty hearing whether or not one's in tune in higher ranges? I'm pretty good at knowing if my intonation is off when I'm in third position...but as soon as it hits that high F and G, I can no longer tell if i'm in tune or not. So sad!

Oh, i don't know who you guys are referring to re: intermediate player but i'm an absolute benginner, I don't know if that makes any difference :) difference.

September 17, 2008 at 03:39 AM · One technique I was taught to get used to playing in higher positions is to just "stay" there awhile. In other words, play a simple melody up in that position. Once you feel comfortable up there, then focus on the transition to that comfortable place (the shift itself). This technique helps in really getting to know what the hand, finger and instrument postion should be to play comfortably in the higher position. My first journeys into 8th position and beyond were nearly impossible at first until I just stayed in that position for a time to figure out how it was SUPPOSED to feel.

As far as the thumb is concerned, it should be more under the neck than to the left side the higher you get. As you get in even higher positions, your thumb may be on the upper shoulders (at least that is the case on a viola). Moving the scroll upwards helps with this transition ALOT. It doesn't necessarily have to stay there, but the movement itself is inducive to the up-shift.

September 17, 2008 at 05:09 AM · Greetings,

PM,

to increase your security in higher position pitch play the passage an octave lower until the pitch is stabilized. If you have a copy of Drew Lechers book you will find that he advocates an exercise in which a finger pattern is played in first position (or low position) and then repeated an octave highe rin various rythms. This is a tried and tested method of developing the skill you desire.

Cheers,

Buri

September 17, 2008 at 03:55 AM · In general, if the violin is elevated just enough such that the scroll is higher than the chin rest end, all your ascending shifts will feel like they are descending rather than ascending. Gravity will work to help your hand and arm feel as if it is sliding towards your center.

Also, you want the basic head/neck position to be centered, such that the button where the tail piece "rope" is attached is aimed toward the center of your throat so the instrument does not feel like it will lean at too steep of an angle and its weight fall into your hand such that you feel you have to grab hold of the violin with your thumb and index finger.

The neck of the violin should be resting on your thumb and gently at the base of your index finger (the magic "X" spot as Paul Rolland refers to it) where the third crease at the base of your index finger is. As you "ascend" in position past the shoulder of the violin, the thumb will come around more, even up over the top of the instrument in higher positions while the fingers remain curled above the strings they play on.

A turning of the hand and a swing of the elbow towards or just past your ribs but not twisted towards your breast bone will further assist in reaching in higher positions.

These movements can be experienced gradually by playing fingers 1234 in each position, starting with first position and then substituting finger 1 for where finger 2 had been, inching your way up the fingerboard, position by position.

The feeling should be more left to right than swinging vigorously around and pulling the shoulder blade flat with the rest of the back.

A picture is worth a thousand words. You may wish to check out Todd Ehle's videos of which the following are but two examples: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbYkp64gRSc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1rqY5B8xoM&feature=related

September 17, 2008 at 05:34 PM · Buri,

Even Elman's Humoresque had at least one note in 5th position. I was one of the unfortunate few who attended an Elman recital when he was 75, I believe the year of his last performance tour. Better I had stayed home and kept the myth alive in my mind.

But, that is an aside. Some years ago, I was advised to aim for the 1st finger position when ascending to higher positions, instead of aiming for whatever the sounding finger was to be. It turned out be be good advice, but I don';t always follow it when sightreading.

Keeping lower fingers on the string is always a good idea in fast passages, and especially when sightreading new music. It takes no work to do so, because all the work in pressing the string is done by the sounding finger. The exception is on longer* notes, when some vibrato may be helped by taking some fingers off the string to loosen the hand and free the sounding-finger joints.

* Longer than what? Say longer than --- a sixteenth note, but that would depend on the tempo, wouldn't it?

There is no doubt that different people have different muscle/nerve links that cause them to move some fingers (and even facial muscles) in "concert" when it is completely unnecessary. I advise only limited effort to terminate such habits, and then only if they get in the way of playing the way one wants to.

It is important to eliminate unproductive habits early on, otherwise it is very difficult. I would estimate that it takes about a month to eliminate a bad habit - maybe several can be eliminated at the same time. But it requires one to go back to the beginning and not try to play at their current level until the bad habit is gone.

Andy

September 18, 2008 at 07:46 PM · I found what helped us is to think of the shift as one fluid movement instead of a lot of little different steps for the finger, arm, and hand. When you are not comfortable you can anticipate the shift and then try to get ready by sneaking ahead with your thumb etc.. We found if you wait until it is time to shift instead of sneaking your thumb or elbow around in anticipation of the shift, things go smoother and the hand and fingers fall into alignment. That way you don't get that hiccup on the shift and it blends in better, not to mention being more consistently in tune. Hardly the most technical post I am afraid. Good Luck

September 19, 2008 at 06:49 AM · It is not necessarily a bad thing to anticipate a shift. The same thing applies to anticipating a string crossing. As part of the flow of the shift or the bow change or the string crossing certain movements happen prior to others to assist in a smooth connection. Technique is always a function of dynamic balance. One is not waiting until the last possible moment to make one efficient movement. Efficiency and flow are in fact the result of a chain of events that, when done with great skill and ease, appear to be one uninterrupted movement. The slow motion photography of Jascha Heifetz's left hand as captured on video in his performance of Wienawski's Scherzo Tarentelle is a case in point.

September 19, 2008 at 07:33 AM · PM, I spent some time playing around in fifth position to see if I could reproduce your problem. Unfortunately, I couldn't - I'd have to see what you're doing - but I do have a couple of ideas that might help. First, have you tried working backwards? What I mean by this is have you tried finding fifth position with the upper two fingers, instead of with the first finger? If fifth, the third finger is an octave above the open string. That's an excellent pitch reference. Find where your hand is comfortable playing this third finger. My hand touches the bouts but hardly comes round the instrument. Found the E? Or better, do this on a lower string, where you're already comfortable hearing the pitches. Now, play a whole step between 3 and 4, finding the position that's most free and comfortable for your hand. Keep the third finger down. You can check the intonation of the fourth finger with the next higher open string: your fourth finger should be a perfect fifth above. Play quarter notes back and forth (3-4-3-4), four to a bow at about mm=80.

Now go back from the third to the second finger.

Repeat the process (3-2-3-2), finding the best possible (i.e. free-est) arrangement for the hand, arm and shoulders. Then play 3-4-3-2 and 3-2-3-4. Keep the fingers down lightly. Finally add the first finger and practice similarly. The hand prefers to stretch down than up, so that's why orienting it this way can be a big help. Hope this is useful!