Queries about Carl Flesch Scales

August 27, 2007 at 09:37 PM · My previous teachers have hopped around quite a bit, assigning some exercises for each key but not all of them at the same time. Also, I've found that the G-major is a more frequent (and much easier) starting point. The rhythms might be easier with C-major, but rhythm isn't always necessary for scale work. Each teacher does it their own way, though, so his might have another way of teaching the material.

August 28, 2007 at 05:48 AM · Lye Yen

I've been teaching out of Carl Flesch for many years (my students first learn the Hrimaly scales). Unless a student is extremely talented, I only have them do certain parts of the scales--never the whole thing. There is too much technique. I start them with the #s 1-4, and only on the first 2 bars of each. There are so many issues of shifting and hand position that any more is overwhelming. I also vary that with the 3-octave scale and arppeggios (major and minor), and gradually add in the broken thirds and chromatics. All the other sections are great when they get older, but I'd rather do more with less in the beginning until they get the hang of the basics.

August 28, 2007 at 09:33 AM · Hi LyeYen,

Just like Scott Cole teaches, I was taught the Flesch scale system in small doses at first, beginning with numbers 1 through 5, and with the easier keys -- g, a, b flat, c, and later d, e, f. B flat major is special, because it is the first that has the standard fingering in the three octaves scale.

Each exercise is a subject in itself, and probably many will take a long time to perfect. The tenths and the double artificial harmonics have large stretches, which may be unsafe to practice without guidance from a teacher.

So, to your question of how long it will take to master all the exercises in the Flesch scale system, the answer would be "years", "life", or "never". I still hope it's "life" in my case.

August 28, 2007 at 01:55 PM · Thks for all your replies.. haha..Bart, I like your answer of "years", "life" and "never". Oh, so there are easier keys to start off with other than C major...

We used to follow the British ABRSM system and do the scales from the ABRSM syllabus. We have (5 mths ago) moved to USA, so now we have to switch to a new teacher, and a new teaching method.

To be honest, I think our teacher is pretty ambitious .. He starts with C major, with the single octaves (eveything, arpeggios, dim sevenths, dominant sevenths, broken thirds, chromatic), followed by 3 octaves everthing, now my son is in the middle of the double stop thirds. To be fair, he advocates a pretty fair share of bowing exercises and finger exercises as well. My other son is 4 (started playing at 3), and has started on Carl Flesch scales as well. He is still with no.1.

I agree, it is indeed very overwhelming, esp for my 4 yo. My 6 yo learns the piano as well, so lot of the theory behind it is much more comprehensable, I guess..

August 29, 2007 at 03:47 AM · I can't imagine giving that much out of the Flesch book to a 6 or 4 year old. After about seven years of playing (and quite a few months of Sevcik Op. 9), I was prepared for the double stop scales in the Flesch, and I mean that I could played almost everything in tune without much work at all (except the fingered octaves and tenths),

Generally, You might change the key once a month with you start Flesch, just so you can get used to it, and slowly start switching keys more frequently, to about once a week. Flesch advocates the switching of keys every single day, but that is impractical unless you have the technique to play the entire scale through without having to work on much (so your intonation would be very good, your bow controlled, and clean shifts).

I've also found that octaves are good for starting out in the double stop scales. This helps set up the frame of the hand, and it is fairly obvious if the octaves are in tune or not.

August 29, 2007 at 04:15 AM · I'm happy to hear that your son is working with this system. I still use it. The best way to use it is to play 1-12 slowly... set the metronome at 40 and allow for 2 clicks per note... this will allow him to play in tune and relaxed physically that is... it takes about 1 1/2 hours... switch keys every day... many people can play fast but few can play in tune... yes, go with C Major then do a minor and so forth until the end of the book... tell him to do this every day for six months... let me know what kind of a violinist you get after that regime... I've done it myself... it works... this is the old school... and people like Scheryng used Carl Flesch for almost everything... technical...

August 29, 2007 at 05:00 AM · For my very young students (actually, for the older beginners, too) I start off with the simple, easy-to-read, "Elementary Scales and Bowings" by Harvey Whistler.

A four-year-old? That's a pre-reader, right?

August 29, 2007 at 07:41 AM · Well here I was feeling pretty pleased with myself that I was starting Flesch after only two years of playing, and now I find out that I'm at the level of four year olds. This is the weirdest hobby I've ever had.

August 29, 2007 at 02:42 PM · Haha.. Thks again for all replies.

Yes, Charlie, it is a lot for my 6 year old. Guess what the teacher told us at the first lesson - Aim to finish this book at age 9. I looked at the book and gasped!!!

Yes, Jack, he currently does no. 1 - 6, 2 to three times each set daily. He has absolute (perfect) pitch (haha...I tested him on the website listed on another thread), so he plays his 3 octaves arpeggios faster than I could say "Make sure you have the correct finger structure!" It is indeed hard to get him to slow down. The only way is to set a metronome.

Yes, Laurie, my younger boy is 4 yr 8 mths old. He is now with C-F-Ab on G string(number1). It is a lot for him to remember, shifting, positions, finger shapes, bow location, etc. But he is coping well. Well, good thing is that he is not a beginner. He was with a quasi-suzuki way of teaching before and he was already playing Vivaldi 6 mths back. But with this new teacher, we have to re-wire a lot of things (can no longer play by ear!). Tough!

August 29, 2007 at 03:22 PM · Though I responded to your post privately, I am posting this comment here to address your desire for more advice about helping young budding violinists. Though the following does not deal with parenting issues, it is still very useful in terms of giving you and your children valuable knowledge about the mechanics of violin playing and, as such, can help them avoid physical injury and stress. I'd like to recommend Susan Kempter's How Muscles Learn - it has very clear advice (with good photos!) about making sure young players are set up in a solid but relaxed way so that they can enjoy a lifetime of pain-free playing and handle more successfully the challenges of the Carl Flesch scale system as well as other advanced technical studies and repertoire.

August 29, 2007 at 03:52 PM · Thks Ronald, I have responded to the email. I will definitely take a look at the book "How Muscles Learn". Thks again.

August 29, 2007 at 05:31 PM · Most four-year-olds, if they can't read words yet, aren't really all that ready to read music.

You can train a child to do anything, but development takes time. Some don't know the difference. Hopefully your teacher does.

August 29, 2007 at 06:24 PM · Hi Laurie, he can read a little - some Dr Suess... He is also working on Kayser etudes. Yes, our teacher is pushing it a little, but we'll see how far it goes.

August 30, 2007 at 01:18 AM · Intonation is deceitful... be careful when you say perfect pitch... if your ear is not trained then things sound "in tune" when they are faulty... make sure to have him practice as slowly as his nature allows... I know plenty of people with "perfect pitch" that can hear but can't play in tune... finger acuracy is something that has to be conditioned slowly... its like programming your brain... have you read about how the soviets taught languages to their agents?

August 30, 2007 at 04:44 AM · My teacher has taught me to practice Carl Flesch scales to learn not just intonation, but also shifting, rhythm, string-crossing, sound-points, bow pressure and speed, different bowing techniques and tone production, etc. If I don’t have much time to practice, Flesch is all I’d do for that day.