Straightening fingers during collé downbow

October 31, 2024, 5:48 AM · I find Fischer is usually right.

October 31, 2024, 5:52 AM · I don't doubt he's right. I wonder if it's universal though?

October 31, 2024, 9:45 AM · Nobody is "unversal"!

October 31, 2024, 10:05 AM · You can easily test the question yourself by playing some eighth notes, at three places on the bow, middle, tip, frog, using only finger motion.

November 1, 2024, 7:36 AM · This applies only to colle and similar wrist strokes. Generally it's the reverse.

Edited: November 1, 2024, 9:22 AM · Yes, it’s correct—as long as only the fingers are used.
Don’t mistake this for finger motion during a legato stroke, in which the fingers are curled as the arm moves for a downbow, then straighten for the upbow.

If you just do downbow colle (again, zero arm movement), you’ll see that yes, you MUST straighten the fingers to move the move. Of course, the fingers have to curl to move the bow only upbows.

November 1, 2024, 11:08 AM · Thanks. All very helpful.

Edited: November 2, 2024, 5:05 AM · Just been checking..
If the downbow collé stroke comes from the elbow rather than the wrist, then the fingers may indeed keep the "clinging" shape. More like a martelé, though.

November 2, 2024, 10:52 AM · It’s an exercise, if it’s from the elbow, it’s not colle, which is fingers only.
In reality, though, occasionally there is a little of both, like in the 3rd movt of Mendelssohn.

November 4, 2024, 10:15 AM · yes like Scott says: collé is basically "only" an exercise, but one that dramatically improves your overall control in "real" bowing, I find.

November 4, 2024, 1:39 PM · Don't get the idea I'm dismissing colle--it's absolutely necessary.

November 5, 2024, 12:58 PM · Presumably if the collé 'exercise' were to be done at the heel it would be backward? i.e. straightening your fingers gives you an up bow. I think that's where I got confused.

Edited: November 5, 2024, 1:11 PM · Only if it is a forearm high-wrist stroke.
A wrist only stroke will have to curl the fingers.
I note how very many top players do not often raise the wrist at the heel.
The pinch of the collé best comes from the thumb for me.

November 5, 2024, 1:51 PM · I'm watching an orchestra now. For the majority the fingers point up at the heel.

November 6, 2024, 7:07 AM · Bud anytime you use the *fingers* to move the bow: either in an extreme setting as in the collé exercise, or when you are for example strongly articulating the beginning of a bow stroke, I think it is straightening the fingers to move the bow down, and curling them up again to move the bow up. That seems natural to me. However, contrast this to a situation where you want a very smooth bow change, expressly avoiding any articulation. In that case the bow is moved not by the fingers but by the arm or elbow. The wrist is flexible and the fingers should simply go with the flow (Adrian here on v.com compared it to water plants in a flow of water). Yes, in that case, at the point where you change as smoothly as possible from downbow to upbow, the fingers will straighten. So, two opposite situations that should not be confused.

Edited: November 7, 2024, 1:17 AM · Whatever type of articulation (or not) you're going to do at the frog the last thing many do is straighten the fingers i.e. finish the upbow with a little push up by straightening the fingers before curving the fingers to start the downbow with a finger pull. It's not universal though. Put another way, I'm finding every full stroke (whether up or down) ends with a small straightening and starts with a small curving.

November 7, 2024, 8:25 AM · Interesting to hear, so that is some kind of "active" bow change, right? I try to leave my fingers as loose as possible in a bow change, the energy is all coming from wrist, elbow, or arm, depending on the kind of stroke. Again referring to the waving water plants idea. Would be interesting to ask around here on v.com who else does such an active bow change?

November 7, 2024, 4:29 PM · Jean,
I just wrote a blog on this.
Cheers,
Buri

November 8, 2024, 4:47 AM · ...one of my favorite exercises of all time has always been to do an up bow colle at the heel and a down bow colle at the point and vice versa.

Thanks Buri. Your blog is very informative and gives plenty to think about. Do you curl or straighten to do your 'upbow at the heel'?

Also, passive vs active finger use is not so easy to identify. Matthay (piano) wrote a book - The Visible and Invisible in Technique.

Edited: November 16, 2024, 5:30 PM · Todd Ehle has a demonstration:

November 16, 2024, 5:31 PM · Todd Ehle has an enviable teaching voice and demeanor.

November 16, 2024, 5:44 PM · Hi Bud,
To do an up bow at the heel you would curl your fingers. (And toes too, perhaps….)
Regards,
Buri

Edited: November 17, 2024, 8:55 AM · Thanks folks. I am rehabilitating myself as we speak! (with thoughts of Arlo Guthrie)

Edited: November 18, 2024, 4:28 AM · I really wonder how this kind of analysis of the detailed micro-movements involved in playing actually benefits the average learner? I´m not trying to be provocative. I´ve personally found that (by and large) the technical breakthroughs I´ve made come through a top-down process of observing great musicians, listening acutely, employing visualisation and mental imagary and developing my kinaesthetic awareness (as well as putting in the long long hours on specific studies and appropriate repertoire, of course). If I try to focus too hard on doing one small piece of a large and complicated puzzle everything backfires. Surely the best players have just learned the most natural, efficient movements to play different kinds of music. If we break them down they are incredibly complicated, but they don´t feel complicated. I´m all for exercises to train awareness of what´s going on in the body, and develop finger flexibility and strength, but I worry that for many learners reading a discussion like this could be counterproductive. (This is not, of course, to disparage the knowledge being shared above, and I have learnt an enormous amount from people posting in this thread - in fact, many of the ideas which support my points here, ironically).

November 19, 2024, 3:02 AM · putting in the long long hours Not sure I'm on with that. I do think interosseous muscles are not mentioned enough.

November 19, 2024, 6:42 PM · They are the first two words I say to my wife every morning. :)