Trade In Policy

February 16, 2024, 2:38 AM · It completely depends on the price of the bow.
If you buy a 300 000USD Tourte I would not consider a 50% trade in, if you buy a cheap bow up to 300 USD I am actually surprised this is even an option as with taxes, rehairing etc this is quite a bad deal for the shop, imho.
It may depend on the counrtry you live in, but being able to trade in at all is uncommon in Germany, so for me this is a good deal. If you get yourself a master bow, which usually is between 2000 USD and 5000 USD these days, you should be able to sell it privately for a better price though.

February 16, 2024, 3:05 AM · The bow I'm looking at is round $3,000. I have another bow that is a bit more that I prefer for music such as Beethoven, Elgar, Mendelssohn, etc. This particular bow that I'm looking at is light and responsive and more inclined towards Vivaldi, Mozart & Bach. Quite a nice bow by a living maker. I trade in every few years it seems as my techniques and preferences change.

Edited: February 16, 2024, 5:04 AM · If it is not full of investment quality (dead French guy's name, MacArthur prize, etc.), you're sort of stuck.
Reliable sources of excellent bows in that price class are not thick on the ground. Still, a shop I have dealt with will offer 100% if the bow they sold you was their own and not on consignment. That has its limitations, especially given recent price increases, but they do make a point of keeping a roster of good modern makers. So they are out there.

Extravagance is not a great option for everyone, but is this a bow you can see hanging onto even when "the one" comes along? Everyone needs a backup, for re-hairs of the main stick, outdoor pops concerts, col legno works, etc.

February 16, 2024, 5:13 AM · Stephen - By some stroke of luck, I think I've already found "the one". I came across a Gary Leahy bow a few weeks ago and fell in love with it. It's average weight, balanced beautifully, I've found techniques with it that I haven't been able to do before. It draws a beautiful sound. It's a bow I can't see myself giving up in the future.

This bow that I'm looking at is a lighter weight bow that is quite nice for the stuff that requires a lighter, more nimble sound. That being said, I don't know that it will be a forever bow. While it works for me now, I don't know if that will continue to be the case in 2-3 years or more. I can see myself trading in/up at some point but at this time, I like the feel of it and enjoy how well it does with Vivaldi & Mozart!

I already have backup bows thankfully - I own an Arcus S6 as well as a JonPaul bow for outdoors, col legno and other instances.

Yes, this range of bows is fairly common. It's a matter of finding one in the haystack that fits the bill. I do enjoy this bow but wondering if it's worth it to go this route or stick with some place with a better trade in policy.

Edited: February 16, 2024, 5:55 AM · I think it will be hard to get a 100% trade in guaranteed.
I sold an Arcus bow a few years back, I think I picked it up for 5500 and sold it for 2500. So even the 50% would have been better for the plastic bow. I still own an entry level Arcus, just in case I don't want to risk my good bows, but I am rather done with that kind of bow, so I get your sentiment of not being comfortable in wanting the same bow in the future.
The same thing happened to me with a Grünke bow, it was great, but lacked a bit of side stability, which I only came to dislike after a couple of years. That one however I sold close the the price I got it for.
3000 USD is a nice price range, there are literally tons of decent bows around for this price. So good luck finding the right one.

February 16, 2024, 6:18 AM · The percentage trade in is of importance if the shop has a good stock, and is established.

If the shop closes, the trade in is useless. Similarly, if they do not have a better bow or instrument, then again, the trade in is useless.

The money to run the shop has to come from somewhere. Rehairing costs money. I would not expect 100 percent. Otherwise the money comes from high prices.

February 16, 2024, 6:25 AM · Well, having the Leahy bow will remove a lot of stress on finding a second wooden one.

February 16, 2024, 7:07 AM · I think it makes sense to put all your budget into a single great bow, and have a cheap carbon fiber backup. Tradeback is then not an issue since you expect the great bow to appreciate in value.

February 16, 2024, 9:18 AM · I agree with Lydia, about both, findind THE bow and also that good bows tend to increase in value, even those without historic origin. (Make of that what you will about that 5k Arcus / Müsing bow I sold for 3k less). I understand the urge to have two different types of bows though.
One solistic and one for chamber music for example. It gets even worse, if you have more than one violin. However, I still think it is best to adapt playing style over equipment for different kinds of music mostly, excluding historic practice of course.
Fortunately, both my violins like the same kind of bow. Although I got to admit, that my Italian is in danger of becoming an investment piece over an instrument anyway, as I seem to still prefer my modern violin most of the time.
Wow, I just realized this while typing, hits me hard o.O

Edited: February 16, 2024, 1:54 PM · Just because it's not your forever bow doesn't mean you can't keep it forever. Then when you feel like you want to add a heavier bow to your arsenal, you do that. And you keep your lighter bow for baroque music or whatever.

Pro bowlers have a separate ball to pick up spares.

February 16, 2024, 1:57 PM · Marc, I’ve noticed without fail that trade in or carbon fiber bows is much less than with standard wood bows. I’ve come to expect that. I originally had a P4 that I traded in and received 60% in trade in which seems to be fairly common.

February 16, 2024, 3:54 PM · I agree to some extent with Lydia, in that you should spend the money to get a really good bow because that will make more difference in your sound than spending the same amount on the instrument. That said, much depends on your level of playing and your future plans. Anytime you change one variable by a significant amount -- bow, violin, skill -- you may need to change the others to accommodate. So, spend the money and get a great bow for your current playing and instrument.

February 16, 2024, 9:02 PM · In my experience, I would not count on EVER recouping money from a bow or violin. Period. It is just not the reality of the business. View it more like a car.

Even if the value of your instrument does rise, you either have to find a private party willing to pay your asking price, or take a big hit from the consignment fee. And remember, it takes DECADES for the value to increase to the point where you break even.

As has been pointed out, do not count on even most big-name companies to remain in business, especially since most are family run. The patriarch (or matriarch) dies or retires, and the whole thing collapses when the kids decide to close shop.

Case study #1: I purchased a fine English bow in 1998 from Moenig & Son, which suddenly closed in 2010. When I shopped the bow around last year, I was suddenly told it had a repair (which I didn't see, and which was either not disclosed or their celebrated "bow expert" also missed). Now, no one will touch it. On paper, should be worth $10k. I'll be lucky to get a tiny fraction locally.

Case study #2: A close friend passed away, and her fine Italian violin was sent to a famous Chicago dealer. The dealer was then sold to a former employee, the violin "disappeared" with only a fraction of the sale price going to the family, and the joker that bought said dealer simply told the family, "sue me. I only bought the assets, not the liabilities."

Case study #3: my violin, by a supposedly well-known maker in the midwest, has languished for sale for at least a year and a half, and if it does sell, I'll net much less than the maker's own price (he refuses to take it back to sell, even if I offered him a commission. So much for confidence in his own work...).

So, yes, I'm very cynical about the violin trade, and deservedly so. My advice is to simply pick something you like at the price point you can afford, and don't count on seeing that $$ again. Maybe your heirs will. Probably not them either.

Also keep in mind that when you go to sell what you thought all those years was a fine fiddle by X maker from X country, someone in the future could say, "terribly sorry, it's not what you thought it was. And we found a poorly done back repair that you can't see."

February 17, 2024, 1:06 AM · I might have been lucky, but my experience for violins luckily is rather different. I sold two violins in the last two decades, both times significantly better than I bought them, about 10k and 20k more, commission already substracted.

February 17, 2024, 4:05 PM · I've had a mixed experience. I've got a contemporary that I can't seem to sell. It took me about a year to sell a modern Italian.

February 17, 2024, 4:26 PM · Contemporary instruments are always a gamble. I got one that increased its official value by almost 30k since I got it, as the maker was not famous when I got it, but is well-known now.
I am still not sure, if I could sell it even close to the asking price of an instrument he builds or I have it insured at.
Generally, even if you can sell, it most of the time is a very stationary asset. Selling violins most of the times takes long, as long as its not one of the big 3 makers or something like that.
A friend sold a Peter Greiner and alao took quite some time, although it was at the time they were highly sought after. At the same time, the rumors of them degrading over the years started back then, so maybe that's the reason.

February 17, 2024, 5:36 PM · My luthier, Potter Violins, does trade-ins for instruments it sells if you want to upgrade. I got my first viola there in 2014, and, when I wanted to get a better viola last year, I traded in my first viola for the price I paid minus $250. So, while this worked well for me, there are so many possible problems, e.g., you have to get your trade-up from Potter and they may not have the better instrument you want, that I would think you really cannot count on doing this. You have to plan as if that trade-up is unavailable.

Edited: February 19, 2024, 6:51 AM ·

I recently purchased a nice bow, and my luthier gave me an 80% trade in allowance on my previous bow that had been purchased from him.

Normally, he gives a 100% trade-in on a violin or bow originally purchased from him, provided its for a violin or bow respectively that's selling for at least the price of the trade-in. But he was selling the new [to me] bow I purchased on consignment. So, we decided on an 80% trade-in. (Note that my trade-in was 20% the cost of the new [to me] bow.)

If his original selling price of a trade-in is greater than the bow being purchased, he will refund the price difference MINUS his typical commission of 30%.

I'm not sure what his standard trade-in for bows or violins not originally purchased from him. Though, it wouldn't surprise me if it's about 50%. I recall that he gave me a $1000 on a violin he estimated to be worth about $2000. The trade-in was for a $2000 bow that I purchased a long time ago. (Not the same bow I traded in recently.) That trade-in value was fine with me.

Edited: February 19, 2024, 7:05 AM · I bought 2 Jay-Haide cellos from Ifshin Violins a few years apart. I traded in the first for the second and was credited full value minus a few tens of dollars for minor refinishing work that I fully understood.

That was their stated policy then (about 20 years ago).