Armwrestling Violinist

February 8, 2005 at 09:35 PM · i will, come up to san francisco

February 8, 2005 at 09:41 PM · Eye-gouging is also excellent for building finger strength.

February 8, 2005 at 09:42 PM · totally

February 9, 2005 at 12:19 AM · Wow, Im gonna have to get my scrawy ass to liverpool and bulk up on steroids, maybe that will help my musicianship. Arm-wrestling helps violin-playing, lol that is the funniest most ridiculous thing i have ever heard (today)

Ps tiddly winks is good for staccato

February 9, 2005 at 07:25 AM · hey, you will never know until you try

February 9, 2005 at 08:03 AM · Ita all a question of mind over matter.Those of us born in north west England know what matters.

February 10, 2005 at 01:23 AM · i wasn't born in england, but my mum's from liverpool, does that count?

February 10, 2005 at 03:14 AM · Hey im from the north-west too. The land of hope and prosperity LOL

February 26, 2005 at 09:09 PM · It is not armwrestling that would help one's violin playing...it's the training program you would go through in order to become proficient at the sport. Believe it or not the most important muscles used in armwrestling belong to the fingers as it is the fingers that are attacked in order to open the hand and in doing so gaining leverage to bring down the arm. As we are well aware as violinists the little finger is on the weak side and as this would be exploited by an armwrestler,it is of vital importance that this finger and the third finger are stregthend. There is a machine called a Plate loader that armwrestlers use to accquire this extra strength,and in using this machine I have found I have greater efficiency when performing consecutive thirds and octaves . With that in mind it is obvious how armwrestling (training) can help your violin playing...

February 27, 2005 at 03:05 AM · look at that, i love this forum.

nice to have you onboard. so it is the strength of the fingers that helps you play?

February 27, 2005 at 08:22 PM · I must say I'm impressed with this forum and I look forward to contributing a little to. This subject did catch my attention for obvious reasons but I must stress that it was a chance I took when I decided to peruse armwrestling as my sport. I was concerned that it would have a detrimental affect on my violin playing especially if I was to wrestle with my left hand, but to my surprise it turned out to be of some benefit to my playing. I recently finished in the top ten of my weight class in the world championships so things are moving on. I do however find it amusing; balancing training and practice and at the moment I have found practicing the chaconne an hour after using the plate loader works well as the hand is really warmed up. That said, you would have to be careful your hands get used to the work I find it is only when you do strenuous things with your hands that you are not used to that you would encounter any problems. Thanks for the interest...

February 28, 2005 at 11:40 PM · Greetings,

this is a really interesting thread. I am going to take the liberty of disagreeing completely with what is being said about strength. I am of course, on the other side of the world so you can`t beat me up....

If violin playing was about strength and muscle building men would be better than women. They ain@` period. Also, quality of performance, abilitiy to improve and so forth would correlate in someway with the relative strength of people. Alas, as a trained powerlifter, serious weight trainer and prune consumer I have never been the equal of Heifetz` pet hamster on his good days.

Major point to start off with. there are no muscles in your fingers. Its not splitting hairs. Language reflects our deep mental conceptions of the body andif the y are faulty then the way we use the body becomes faulty too.

The kind of `strength` use d in violin playing is essentialy the strength of the connections between the mind and hands and vice versa. The clearer our concept and our abilty to react to it the better we play. WWhat almost always gets in the way is the mistaken belief that w e need more strength.

The fundamental problem of all violinists except the very best is to learn how not to use strength. To get out of the way. That was what Heifetz and Milstein could do so perfectly.

Cheers

Buri

March 1, 2005 at 01:43 AM · I have nonetheless found a strength issue in recent times, Buri. But it's one of localized strength and also not brute strenth, and it's tied with flexibility - flexibility and strength of the gymnast's style, perhaps. When my fingers were weak, it took my whole hand to move them and one part could not easily differentiate itself from the other - the upper arm might tense from an effort that was supposed to be located somewhere in a finger. I loosely created for myself an idea of three elements: focussed strength, differentiation (I don't tense my hand to move a finger - I get to feel my finger separate from my hand) and the athlete's type of supple relaxation. The three, in my mind, are absolutely interdependent. If I have weak fingers and/or I can't separate their function from say tensing my thumb, I can't achieve relaxation. If - as I mistakenly did a year ago in a misguided quest for relaxation - I make everything limp and passive, not much good happens and the muscles get tired from trying to hold up the dead weight of arm and body. I have no piano and when I get a chance to play one, with my right hand fingers visibly weaker than the left, I can pound the bejeebums out of a note but I cannot do the subtle gentle pianissimo legato and subtle dynamics of the demonstrating pianist with strong fingers differentiating themselves from any suggestion of tensing the hand to complete the process. There is strength, but it is not the arm wrestler's kind - at least from the impressions I am gathering on this journey of mine.

I have a feeling re: "The fundamental problem of all violinists except the very best is to learn how not to use strength." that you first need to have a certain type of strength in order to not use it.

I absolutely like the idea of getting out of the way.

March 1, 2005 at 02:29 AM · Greetings

Inge,

>I have a feeling re: "The fundamental problem of all violinists except the very best is to learn how not to use strength." that you first need to have a certain type of strength in order to not use it.

Yes. We are born with it.;)

Cheers,

Buri

March 1, 2005 at 03:10 AM · I agree with Buri. Men with strong arms, hands, and/or fingers have their own problems playing violin, for example, flexibility and learning to relax their muscles.

March 1, 2005 at 03:13 AM · Greetings,

western men also very consistently thrust their pelvis forward out of synch with the skeletal structure. That is something for teahcers to keep an eye on, as it were.

I blame Elvis, who I understand is currently living in Sweden under an assumed name beginning with M....

Cheers,

Buri

March 1, 2005 at 04:00 AM · I remember one day after a karate lesson, I abscent mindedly walked through a rough neighborhood inhabited by a ruthless gang of violinists. Let me tell you, no blows were exchanged but I did feel extremely grateful for my martial arts training! I was one of the lucky ones.

Unfortunately, the pub contests I take part in often limit my dexterity and leave my eyes seeing double-stops and triplets! Salut!

March 1, 2005 at 04:14 AM · Greetings,

thank goodness. James has finally given te definitive answer to a question recently posed on another thread `What do we call an agglomeration of violinists?`

`A ruthless gang.`

Relieved,

Buri

March 1, 2005 at 04:22 AM · Reminds me of when Eugene Fodor threatened Louie Nye on the Tonight Show, prompting Louie into a shtik about the shame of being beaten up by a violinist.

March 1, 2005 at 10:48 PM · Physical exercise in general, except for strengtening your heart and lungs and general health, triggers the production of so-called endorphines in your brain. These e.phines are important for your general well being, and, much in the same way as coffein will relase calcium in your brain which easens the electrochemical impulses inside the brain which again causes your fingers to run across the fingerboard, in the same way these endorphines are important for the work of the brain. Therefore, I think you're both right.

Physical exercise is extremely important for our general physical and mental health, which again will affect our ability to relax and play well. Of course, our born-with abilities are very important, but there is also another element. Awareness.

There is a philosophical question attached to Mr. Buri's statements. If we need to not to use strength, can we do it if we don't have it? Or will the building of strength make us more aware of how to use and/or not use our strength? How can we get mentally aware of not using strength if we are not in mental contact with the element of strength?

Well, I don't know the answer, but I think for some people it might be wise and good to work out, and get strength, and for some perhaps not as much. Physical therapists tend to suggest very lighter weights for people working with fine motor movements a lot. But, we have lots of muscles in our hands, that's a fact we cannot escape from. Important must be to find a good way to use it, a way that suits us best.

All best,

Mr. Norway

March 1, 2005 at 11:33 PM · Greetings,

very interesting post.

Actually I am a strong advocate of violinists (everbody) paying equal attention to flexiibility, strength and cardio training. Part andf parcel of being `professional.`

Cheers,

Buri

March 2, 2005 at 04:09 AM · "everybody" unless you're an opera tenor ;)

March 7, 2005 at 07:29 AM · When I was about 19 a friend had just gotten out of Army basic training and wanted to arm wrestle me. Right handed he beat me in about 10 seconds. Left handed I beat him after about one minute. And I'm right handed.

On a related note, according to the U.S. Army, they found that lack of grip was the No. 1 reason for female soldiers' poor rifle range scores. They did a study, and found that the group that did regular grip strengthening exercises performed much better than any other group, including a group that just practiced shooting a lot.

On another related note, one of my teachers, a veteran first violinist with the Cleveland Orchestra, swore by his "Eggserciser", a spongy piece of rubber shaped like an egg that you squeeze to strengthen your grip.

Benjamin

March 9, 2005 at 01:19 PM · We assist here to the difficulty to interprete word and concept. Strength might be mixed up muscle development such a Rambo or pressure or tension even crispation and so on .Playing violin requires balance ,that means agonist and antagonist muscles must have the same strength. For the hand the thumb muscles group is normally stronger than the pinky group ;in that way I agree with Daniel . Martial arts help find this equilibrium

March 9, 2005 at 02:29 PM · He, if practicing in a pub helps... I am moving to Liverpool right now... Actually, I can see where it might help...

I guess you become more aware of your muscles, of muscle tensions etc, so therefor it might be easier to play. HOwever, I remember having gone out to hit (or attempt) to hit some baseballs and having to play Mozart 5 the next day in a lesson. I had a beautiful upbow staccato, unfortunately not required in the opening statement of the concerto...

March 10, 2005 at 06:41 PM · I fail to see where I said the finger muscles resided in the fingers them selves,I said "the muscles that belong to the fingers"(they are in the forearm)

so it was your interpretation of the English language that was off there Stephen not mine. You also said something about learning how not to use strength

I think you must have meant learning to use lesser degrees of strength as it is physically impossible to play the violin without a degree of strength.

My point was that my playing in some areas benefited from the conditioning I put my hands through in order to become an armwrestler, as I have been a violinist

for 31 years I was in a position to notice. If violinists male, female,young or old do not need well developed finger muscles then why do there fingers get stronger year after year through playing alone, practicing the violin can be very strenuous and fatigue can set in and your playing can suffer. I suggest that raising the condition of these muscles and increasing endurance can only help elevate us above our individual stress levels and so eliminate dicabilitating fatigue.

I would be careful when stereotyping, suggesting that I would want to beat you up because you disagree and I'm an armwrestler is a tad on the ignorant side, an armwrestler assuming that a violinist must be a good chess player is on the same lines....having said that the world championships are in Japan in December you are quite welcome to come and give support to a fellow musician. Cheers all.

March 10, 2005 at 07:29 PM · Benjamin's old teacher must have been ahead of his time with the Eggserciser,I have just ordered something similar called a snowball ,from a company called 'Iron Mind' who specialise in hand strength. You know I have a clash of interests coming up, I have a concert booked that falls on the same date as a tournament in the NEC Birmingham England ,I do like a challenge and I'm going to attempt to compete in the day and perform that evening , I hope I don't end up with Carla's up-bow staccato !!!!

March 11, 2005 at 08:23 AM · Daniel, make sure you stretch really, really well and you should be fine. I had never hit a baseball in my life and i was attempting to hit balls coming at a speed around 60 to 80 at me in the batting cages... You should be fine, I tak eit is not the first time you this!

Have fun!