Finger positions, not to be confused with hand position

January 8, 2005 at 09:57 PM · What you're referring to are called finger patterns.The first pattern from the open string is tone ,tone,semitone

which is the basis for one octave scales of g,d and A.Thus g string is g,a,b,c the d string d,e,f sharp,g,the a string a,b,c sharp,d and the e string e f sharp,g sharp,a.This is the basis for all other patterns.The second pattern moves the second finger so instead of being next to or best friends with the third finger it makes its alliance with the first finger thus changing the structure from the open string to tone,semitone tone.Return to the first finger pattern and this time move the third finger away from the second giving tone,tone,tone and you have the third finger pattern.Go back to the second finger pattern and move the first finger back and away from the the second finger making the fourth finger pattern.From the open string this gives semotone,tone. tone.This is using three fingers,if the fourth finger is added apart from the third pattern where the third finger moves up to meet it ,it is always a tone difference therefore there is a space between the third and fourth fingers.Hope this helps.

January 9, 2005 at 12:02 AM · Hi Keith,

Your question looked familiar so I looked back and I noticed that you have asked that question before with no answers, so I guessed that maybe people weren't quite sure what you were asking. In the old post you were also relating it to some problematic in mandoline teaching that relates back to an old violin theory, correct?

Janet's explanation of finger patterns give you the name for what you are hunting up: but I think you are asking whether these specific patterns actually are named. Does anyone out there know whether they do have a name?

By a very strange fluque I happen to have the O. Sevcik book you are referring to. I picked it up in a 2nd hand store one day when a client I was meeting was delayed, and it is the 1929 printing of the original 1901 edition. It is the very first book of the violin school, therefore he introduces his entire concept that he had derived --- and I think that's what you are after.

As I understand it, he was actually AGAINST those patterns being introduced in the beginning within a framework of any (diatonic) scale. "In complining similar Violin methods for beginners the geeneral rule is to use the diatonic scale in the compass of the first position." He then shows diagramatically the finger placement for the G major scale in which he includes the A and B leading up to the C of the scale on the G string. Through this he is illustrating that there is one finger pattern on the G string, taking the spaces from the nut: _X_XX_X -- The D and E string have a different finger pattern and spacing which they share with each other: _XX_X_X while on the E string it is a different pattern again X_X_X_X. Sevcik extrapolated that such a variety of finger patterns was confusing to a beginner who had enough trouble just learning to hold the violin.

Having rejected the teaching of fingering based on diatonic scales, Sevcik then proposes his own system, which he names the Semitone System. A page diagramatically showing a series of fingerboards and fingerings along with explanations then follows illustrating the theoretical basis of his Semitone System. Essentially he seems to be proposing that one finger pattern be taught across all the strings, and then I suppose he moves on to the next finger pattern which is taught across all the strings. The diatonic scale does not enter into the picture at all as I understand it.

Thus the first fingerboard is called "semitone from 1st to 2nd finger" and shows the pattern _XX_X_X on all strings giving the notes in (string order) (G) A,Bb,C,D (D) E,F,G,A (A) B,C,D,E (E) F#,G,A,E. The next finger pattern _X_XX_X "semitone from 2nd to 3rd finger" is probably the pattern that most modern books start with, i.e. the D+ scale that lends itself to this, followed by G+ one octave starting on open G.

His order of presenting the patterns finishes with "connecting the semitones" -- the first version has all the semitones but leaves out the half step from the nut, the second version starts at the first semitone but leaves out the one before the 1st finger, and the last one includes all the semitones.

When I browse through the lessons that follow I can see that the "first pattern" is introduced throughout. There is no question of key signature or melody. In other words, the key signature looks like C+ and when necessary accidentals are added. The first finger is introduced from string to string within that "pattern" giving A,E,B,F# across the strings. The 2nd finger in that pattern is introduced giving Bb, F, C, G and so on in the _XX_X_X "finger pattern".

The very last page introduces the first diatonic scales -- incompletely -- still preserving only those patterns. F+ doesn't start on F, it starts on Bb which is prepared by playing G,Bb before the part to be repeated and practised (within repeat bars) is introduced: Bb,G,Bb,C,D,E,F,E,D,C,Bb,G,Bb. That constitutes "F major".

C major is prepared with a double stopped G+E (why?) then C and goes from C to C in one octave.

G major is prepared with a double stopped D(open string) and B (on A) and then starts on G on the D string with one ascending and descending octave.

This gives me a bit of a picture of the system that Sevcik developed at that time. I can see how those patterns under that system could have acquired names since the progression of lessons depended on them. Here, however, he refers to them according to where the semitones lie.

Does this help in what you are after, Keith?

January 9, 2005 at 03:36 AM · Janet's description is good, especially to emphasize the establishment of the open string scale pattern.

If you go to the Technique section in the Discussion menu, there is some discussion on hand position in the "shifting" thread. I also put up a moving half step exercise that begins similarly to the one Inge described but ends differently and I call that blocking: http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=5745

some more hand position stuff in the "vibrato help" thread:

http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=5737

And all this, the blocking positions and hand position relate to intonation, recently discussed in "teaching intonation without exterior guides" under Teaching in the Discussion menu: http://www.violinist.com/discussion/response.cfm?ID=5784

Lisa

January 9, 2005 at 04:45 AM · Yay, I got a star!

After all that work, Keith I'm curious what it's all about. I can't find your first post anymore but I remember that in some way a method for teaching mandoline fingering was based on something designed by Sevcik and that there was something not ideal about the mandoline approach -- getting me curious.

When I picked up that Sevcik book it was out of curiosity, the hand drawn pictures and old fashioned stance appealed to me. I tried some of the open string exercises and was intrigued that he introduced double stops immediately but never really got into that little book until today.

Now I've become very curious about it. Before his book I suppose that scales were taught in some kind of a way. When I look at any beginner violin book by any school, I don't see anything being used like his chromatic scale system ... so I guess that part never caught on? But did the order or manner in which the first scales got introduced get changed through his input, for example? Or thinking about the physical aspect of forming hand frames? For me at least it left some food for thought and it's intriguing. I don't think I'd want to be taught that way because it seems to me that by the time we learn an instrument even at 7 (I don't think they started 4 year olds in his time) we have little songs in our heads based on the diatonic scale and the absence of that could be rather disorienting. The 1900's was of course the period of rational linear thinking to which people like Rudolf Steiner reacted to the other extreme. (I may have my dates a bit off but I think I'm in the vicinity).

January 9, 2005 at 08:47 AM · Greetings,

one of the most concise and efficient explanations of finger patterns can be found in Robert Gerle's "Art of Practicing" which is a must read anyway.

Cheers,

Buri

PS my IQ runs into minus figures.

January 10, 2005 at 12:15 AM · My first teacher had color coded finger patterns - 4 of them - that correspond with the first 4 patterns that Robert Gerle introduces. She marked passages with a colored pencil to remind me what finger pattern to use. It makes a lot of difficult sections much easier - I recognize it as a "blue" finger pattern or a "red", and my hand knows what to do. I've had people tell me that it's a solution for very young kids only, but I'm a very visual (adult) learner, and I loved the shorthand the colors offer.

Karin

January 19, 2005 at 08:28 PM · Many thanks for the interest in my questions. The nitty gritty of the matter seems to me to be the difference between the realities of an instrument held under the chin (like the violin or viola) and one held in some other way, like the cello, bass, gamba, lute, guitar, banjo, etc., not to mention the mandolin, of course.

And I would be particularly interested in whether people generally accept the conventional wisdom about the constellation of fingers, or whether the theory is indeed the product of thinking around 100 years ago, and regarded now simply as a historical curiosity.

Is there any good argument, for example, against a simply chromatic use of the four fingers, if this is what the music happens to call for (and "diatonic scales" really seem to be typical for music of certain period). Guitar players generally use a chromatic finger constellation, even when playing diatonic scales.

The hand seems to me to work differently on a violin fingerboard (which necessarily puts the hand at a certain angle-although the player obviously nonetheless has a degree of choice) than on a cello (or guitar etc.) fingerboard, and I sometimes heretically wonder if there is room for more cross fertilization.

Perhaps it's fun for some people to question "conventional wisdom"

Once again many thanks for your responses.

Keith

August 20, 2006 at 08:51 PM · An integrated visual/fingering approach works well. This method incorporates the four most common fingering patterns on the fingerboard. This method will allow one to memorize the proper fingerings for all notes of all keys on all parts of the fingerboard. Once this is done, it is a simple matter to know immediately where other notes are in relation to the chosen note anywhere on the fingerboard for all members of the violin family of instruments.

To start, get a blank piece of paper and represent the notes of the C Major scale, that is one with no flats and no sharps. Do this on a drawing of four strings with spaces between each note and strings. Draw a circle around each note of the C Major scale...Starting with the G string: a, b, c, d...then the D string: e, f, g, a....then the A string: b, c, d, e, and finally the E string: f, g, a, b...maybe throw in the c note as well.

The most common fingerings are well known to all violin students. The fingering for the notes on the G string for the notes a, b, c, d, we will call pattern two in the manner of Carl Flesch. (This is a whole step from a to b, a half step from b to c, and a whole step from c to d) The pattern for the next two strings for whole notes (e,f,g,a on the D string and b,c,d,e on the A string) we designate as pattern 3...The pattern on the E string for notes, f,g,a,b is pattern 4. The last missing pattern you will note is Pattern 1, and this is easy to figure out...it would be the finger pattern formed on the e string for the notes starting on g (that is: g, a, b, c). Once you draw these on the paper you will see at once how these patterns are arranged.

The beauty and ease of the violin fingerboard is that it is arranged in intervals of 5ths from string to string. This consistency as well as the arrangement of whole steps and half steps across the Major Scales allows easy memorization of the fingering patterns for each scale. The consistency of notes and note patterns will allow one to quickly find any note from any other note simply by knowing the fingering associated with each note, patterns which remain consistent across the scales.

For C major the fingering pattern is from the G string to the E string: 2334, for G Major it is 2233, D Major:1223, A Major:1122, E Major: 4112, B Major: 3411, and F# Major 3341. Notice that the string patterns for all the above Major keys would read out as 3341122334 if lined up in a row. If you make a diagram of the fingerboard and fingering patterns you will see how there is simply a shift of patterns, which makes memorization an easy thing.

If you write out the notes of each scale such as the notes of the C Major scale: c d e f g a b c, and below each note wrote out the corresponding fingering pattern to find subsequent notes on the same string it would read as 1 2 3 4 1 2 3 1. This pattern will be the same for all keys when arranged in order of the root note (c for C Major, d for D major, f# for F# Major),because the pattern of whole steps and half steps that makes up the finger patterns is the same for all Major keys. Notice that the names of the first Major key signatures: F C G D A E B F# corresponding to the root note are all a fifth away from each other, hence the circle of fifths...but this makes our job easier...because we can arrange the fingering patterns for all keys by notes and the arrangement will be the same, making our job of memorization extremely easy. Bear with me for the following: Note that for C Major, the fingering pattern of 1 applies to the notes c and g (an interval of a fifth)...this means that if you place your first finger on c or g, the notes that follow will automatically fall in subsequent fingers in the fingering pattern of 1 as outlined above. The fingering pattern of 2 applies to notes d and a (an interval of a fifth), and the fingering pattern of 3 applies to notes e and b (again an interval of a fifth). The fingering pattern of 4 belongs to one note: f. This arrangement by fingering pattern is specific to each key but when written out forms a visual arrangement that allows one to easily remember not only the notes of each Major scale, but the pattern associated with each note across all of the Major keys. The importance of this is that as Carl Flesch noted, it is important to have a grasp of the notes on the fingerboard of the violin just as a piano player has of his instrument. The difference is that the pianist has a visual arrqy to look at. While violinists are expected to feel their way around by touch and sound, it is important to gain a visual array at least in the mind's eye. For each Major key the notes and their associated fingering patterns are as follows. A chart can be made by writing them out on a sheet of paper in colums that will be easier to understand.

C Major: c g 1, d a 2, e b 3, f 4

G major: g d 1, a e 2, b f# 3, c 4

D Major: d a 1, e b 2, f#c# 3, g 4

A Major: a e 1, b f#2, c#g# 3, d 4

E Major: e b 1, f#c#2, g#d# 3, a 4

B Major: b f#1, c#g#2, d#a# 3, e 4

F#Major: f#c#1, g#d#2, a#e# 3, b 4

Notice that the fingering pattern of 4 follows the notes fcgdaeb across the scales...Also notice how each member of a pair is a fifth apart. Note that particular pairs of notes that follow a particular fingering pattern sequence are in order, the same order as the names of the scales on the circle of fifths. Notice how the number of sharps and the notes that are sharped are developed across the scales. Memorization of only the names of the scales will allow you to know the root or tonic note of each scale and the fingering patterns follow immediately from this. If you study briefly the fingering patterns and how they relate to the names of the notes across the scale, you will have an understanding of these without having to memorize them.

It is important to study the fingerboard of the violin to see that it is a tightly organized whole with only a few points that require memorization. This is the method that I would recommend to students so that they can visualize the instruments fingerboard and understand how it works, then to get onto the art of playing.

By approaching the violin in a fingering pattern method, memorization is greatly reduced and one will have a more instinctive feel for this instrument. The approach is the same for all members of the violin family because they are all tuned in fifths. If you know one, you know all of them. I leave it to the reader to approach the next group of Major Chords: F Major and the Flat Major chords...the approach is the same...

August 20, 2006 at 10:43 PM · One of the best methods for the physical learning of finger patterns is the Kourguoff (spellings vary) double stop exercises. These consist of seven lines of music, one for each "normal" diatonic finger pattern, exercising each finger within each pattern. Each line is practiced on every string in every key over the course of an extended period (usually several months to a year or more). In addition to developing muscle memory of the finger patterns and the layout of the fingerboard, these exercises rapidly improve the independence of the fingers and make for good ear training.

August 20, 2006 at 11:30 PM · Hi Keith,

Finger positions are still extremely popular, among many teachers. I've been exposed to this idea, particularly in Shradieck. At different times in my training, two different teachers gave me different ways of playing exercise number 1, by changing the accidentals.

Daniel

August 20, 2006 at 11:41 PM · This is all new to me! I've wondered if it would be useful for certain students whose fingers seem to find the spaces between the half steps. :) But I have never had a conversation on this subject, to be honest. Maybe I'm playing devil's advocate, but I would have to conclude that although it may be a useful subject, it is not a popular one, at least in the US.

August 21, 2006 at 02:50 AM · I think Galamian taught it-- at least, I think that's who my teacher got it from. Also Mitchell Stern.