Playing fifths in tune

January 1, 2005 at 09:34 PM · I also have thin fingers; for me, fifths in positions higher than 3rd are difficult to get in tune. My teacher told me that I need to get a new bridge cut (or the same bridge recut), so the strings will be slightly closer together. I needed the same adjustment on my previous full-size violin as well.

I would advise that you speak with your teacher and see what he/she thinks. Good luck!

January 1, 2005 at 09:51 PM · Mr Menuhin talks about playing 5th's in tune in the 6 lessons on VHS - pull the strings together than pop the finger on both strings...it apparantly creates a very nice perfect 5th - you'd have to see the video - it's a tad confusing...

January 1, 2005 at 10:15 PM · My observation has been that the most frequent cause of out of tune fifths is incorrect hand placement. Specifically, when the player is fingering in first position, but his hand is *actually in half position*, the finger will stop the strings out of parallel to the bridge and nut. The solution is to relocate the first position hand placement to a place which is nearer to where he had been playing second position. Assuming a medium to small hand (which makes correct placement all the more crucial) the way you can tell you've located a good spot for a given position is that the effort of extending forward with fourth finger (e.g.:to d# in first position G string) and the effort of extending back with first finger (e.g.: to Bb in first position A string) is about equal. The mistake often made is that the hand is incorrectly placed too near the next lower position, causing the fourth finger to do all the work, and causing out of tune fifths. Another way of thinking about hand placement is: First Position isn't the very first position on the fingerboard...Half Position is!

January 1, 2005 at 11:16 PM · i think mr. steiner is right here, it's a matter of geometry

January 3, 2005 at 02:30 AM · Hello,

I agree with Mr. Steiner. Correct hand positioning is key in getting fifths in tune. If you have narrow fingers and stopping both strings with one finger is difficult, I would go to your teacher to see what he/she thinks, and having a new bridge cut may be the only solution, but try this: Instead of "plopping your finger down in between the strings," try pulling vertically down on the lower string instead of pushing it at an angle directly into the fingerboard. This will close the gap between the strings, maybe enough to be able to stop both of them sufficiently.

I'm not sure if what I said makes perfect sense... but I hope it helps.

Alex

January 3, 2005 at 01:57 PM · One thing my teacher has told me that helps is to make sure that most of your finger is on the upper string. Since doing that, I have had good results.

January 3, 2005 at 03:07 PM · There is a certain 'slant' to it for sure. Having had two months of a piece that was 40% 5ths on the same note with a "blessed" variation a half step up, I got a ample opportunity to try varying the angle of my finger/hand vis a vis the two strings.

January 4, 2005 at 03:00 AM · I disagree with the suggestion of pulling the two strings closer together; by doing this you tighten the string further, thus sharpening the note, and you will not produce the pitch your fingers are aiming for. Try it on one string, you'll see what I mean.

January 4, 2005 at 03:13 AM · I saw Menuhin do it - he said its pretty much only need in the upper positions when the strings are higher above the fingerboard and further apart - to avoid one finger slipping in between the strings he says to pull the together slightly then place whichever finger on them - but of course correct hand placement is needed. I think personally this issue has more to do with the left hand setup - but Menuhin's comments are interesting...

January 4, 2005 at 06:22 AM · Greetings,

Sue, I belive Emil"s mum does it...

Cheers,

Buri

January 5, 2005 at 05:41 AM · Hmm..I figured you were playing Ysaye's L'aurore..

January 5, 2005 at 09:10 AM · Greetings,

Ididn"t understand the previous post. Please explain further.

Cheers,

Buri

January 5, 2005 at 08:01 PM · neither do i

January 5, 2005 at 08:41 PM · Er, has anyone ever answered Sheila's question? I just went to the top of the thread to reorient myself. The thing that struck me during this read of it was that the finger doing the blocking was no longer in a natural position (or the hand wasn't) if the notes were to be in tune. I had those two months of playing bars and bars of 5ths (consecutively but they had to be blocked with one finger for smooth action). I found that the 5ths were out of tune unless I changed to a certain angle. My teacher also suggested using a flatter finger. So that angle thing is there because of the shape of the fingerboard etc. Now is the angle at which a finger meets the instrument only dependent upon the angle and position of the hand (the concern I'm reading is that when the finger is at the right angle, the hand no longer is and that would affect subsequent intonation)? Can some things be done at the finger level -- touching down at different parts of the pad a la Basics etc.? I may be throwing out something totally impractical but throwing it into the discussion anyway in case it yields something.

Oh, and I see in the original post my personal nemesis, the first finger.

January 5, 2005 at 11:58 PM · Greetings,

yes, think about how the first jointopens and closes without affecting the position of the hand.

Cheers,

Buri

January 5, 2005 at 11:59 PM · Talking about joints, would you have any familiar with the Auer form of left hand? I just cancelled a post in the shifting section when I admitted to an urge to swing from a chandelier .... er, maybe I should start a new thread. It might fit here (?)

January 6, 2005 at 03:05 AM · Greetings,

I don"t think you will find anything much different in an Auer left hand as opposed ot anyone elses,

Cheers,

Buri

January 6, 2005 at 06:30 PM · Thanks all the same. Too OT in any case.

January 7, 2005 at 12:48 AM · Well, I've been playing almost nothing but blocked fifths for the last couple of hours, and my own personal conclusion is that the secret to the above unnatural position problem is not to use an unnatural position. Perhaps I have good fat fingers, I don't know - but I find remaining on the fingertips and aiming straight down between the two strings is the key. This way the minimum fingertip area is used, and I at least have found that stopping a string with each side of my fingertip produces a perfect fifth pretty much every time. This way has worked with the vast majority of my first-finger beginners. However there are occasions where players find it more effective to use a flatter finger - but again, using minimal area is essential, I think.

January 7, 2005 at 12:35 PM · Hi Sheila,

in his essay about playing the viola in Menuhin's Music Guide to violin and viola, William Primrose suggest using two (!) fingers for fifths on some occasion.

His reason (quoted freely from his inimitable style) is that if one is unconfortable with strange finger/hand positions, one shouldn't play a stringed instrument held under the chin, anyway.

At 6'4" with rather thick fingers I haven't felt the need to attempt this yet - not even on my viola - but as a last, desperate measure, why not give it a try?

Bye, Juergen

January 7, 2005 at 01:49 PM · "....if one is unconfortable with strange finger/hand positions, one shouldn't play a stringed instrument held under the chin, anyway"

Primrose seems to find some humour in the position our instruments put us in. I've always loved the quote since I first come across it, "... anyone who plays on a string instrument at the shoulder must have a superb sense of the ridiculous and, himself, an exuberant repository of humour."

I take to mean that when we don't know whether to laugh or cry, laughter is the most logical option.

January 7, 2005 at 03:34 PM · How to find the video of Menuhin talking the playing of fifths?

January 7, 2005 at 03:05 PM · Hi Inge,

thanks a lot for providing the verbatim quote!

It's a pity that I'm usually too far from my reference library when I post on violinist.com.

Bye, Juergen

January 7, 2005 at 11:17 PM · You can find the Video tapes of the 6 violin lessons with Menuhin - published under Command Performance - there he shows it...

January 7, 2005 at 11:56 PM · I hunted for those tapes on and off for months. I have the book. So -- where?

January 8, 2005 at 03:51 AM · I also found the book but not the video tape. Are there differences between them?

January 8, 2005 at 07:04 PM · Thanks everyone for your helpful comments. I've tried out the various suggestions, and at least in the lower positions, keeping the hand position the same and putting the first finger down between the strings seems to work best, (though it will need practice, as it's not easy to find exactly the right spot). Flattening the finger doesn't work at all, for me at least, - the angle of the first finger across the fingerboard means the higher note is sure to be flatter than the lower. Above second position, though, putting the finger in the tramlines doesn't work so well - the distance between the strings means the finger doesn't cover either string properly.

I've been looking for the Menuhin 6 lessons. The only place where I have been able to find them is on this site: www.thesoundpost.co.uk, where they certainly have them as DVDs - it's not quite clear from the description if they also sell them in VHS form, but they do mention cassettes.

January 9, 2005 at 03:13 AM · playing 5ths in tune is a case of playing in your natural hand position without twisting, but finding the exact distance inbetween the strings to play on. Of course this is easy for me to say, with my large hands and low bridge. But practice them a lot and it gets easier, EVENTUALLY!

January 9, 2005 at 03:42 AM · I guess you could say the video tapes are much more helpful - one doesn't get confused in Menuhins explanation in the tapes because you see him doing it - whilst in the book I've competely lost myself at times...I don't know where you could get the videos from - because I borrowed them from my music library. Menuhin also plays a bit of the Trill caprice of Paganini and the 24th caprice - its taped in 1968 and he plays very well...a lot of control...