Shifting
I apologize if this question has already been covered in a previous post, but I searched and didn't find anything pertaining to my specific question.
As an undergrad performance student, I find that 99% of my intonation problems result from inaccurate shifting. I do scales and Sevcik Op. 8 daily, but still I am not comfortable with my shifting technique--especially during performance, when I can even manage to miss shifts to third position (due to performance anxiety). My question is, in addition to scales and Sevcik Op. 8, are there any other guides to develop a solid shifting technique?
Also, on a related note, I find that whenever I have to perform and get nervous, my intonation is the first thing that suffers. How can I also develop more solid intonation--more from a mental standpoint than a technique standpoint?
I'd be very appreciative to hear any advice. Thanks!
Replies (73)
Dear Elizabeth,
I go with Carl Flesch on this one. If your intonation is insecure in performance (aside from shifting) it is probably the result of two things: 1-your hearing is not secure or 2-you probably don't spend enough time doing slow practice.
In terms of shifting the best remedy is to practice everything slowly with audible intermediate notes (also good advice from Flesch) and make sure that you map out exactly how your left hand get from one place to the next at all times. And when practicing with intermediate notes, make sure that they are in tune, as they are the base for your hand in whatever position you are going to.
Hope this helps... Cheers!
Greetings,
shifting.
There is a lot of good stuff in the Buri studion columns except they have fallen off the face of the earth for some reason.....
1) Practicing scales or sevcik is not practicing shifting unless you analyse what you are doing. If not, you are just, er, playing scales and sevcik;)
2) The secret of practiicng shifting is to shift at the tempo you are in. Slow tempo-slow shift.
3) The most common error by a long way is to cut the note prior to the shift so it is important to practice scales with a slight pause on this note.
4) Don`t jump, shift. The finger glides along the surfac e of the string like a harmonic.
5) A shift is not a change of finger psoition it is a change of hand positon/arm and all the rest. If you shift with the finger to fifth position but your hand is still in first position shape you will have problems. Thus, the hand makes a small micro movement upwards prior to an upward shift.
5) At least in some schools of violin playing a flexible left wrist is considere dan integral part of shifting. Thus when you shift down the wrist bends -slightly towards the scroll- and readjusts on arrival and vice versa.
6) If you are using too much finger pressure shifting will be difficult. Practice pasasges with no pressure, then 25 percent, then fifty percent until you find the maximum pressure you need.
7) Practice the Kreutzer shifting etude everyday (e major). For the upward shift the hand anticpates by the finger extending toward soyu nose prior to the shift. The downward shioft is a contraction of the hand in which the upper finger moves towards the finger it is pushing out of the way prior to the shift. See my coulmn on the subject.
9) Practice the sevcik with the thumb off the unstrument. Do a lot of your practice this way.
10) Practice without a rest so that you can leanr to ignore the thumb, then go back to the rest.
11) when shifting onto another string practice both not4es as a double stop.
12) When shifting down during scales don`t leave the arm in the high posiiotn shape while you have already returned to first postion.
As far as intonation is conerned there is a very simple exercise in Kievmans book `Practicing the violin mnetally/physically.`
Ex. Play a whole note b in 1st position on the e string. Pause for a fermated whole note . During the pause sing the b an octave higher in your head. Take your fingers/hand away from the finger board a little and you bow away from the instrument. Then, with no preparation, play that octave higher note. singing and no preparation is the key. If you do this without your usual hamgups your hand will remeber where to go and hit the note in tune out of nowhere. If you miss it -don`t adjust= repeat.
Then play the e string b and imagine the uynison in your head during a pause. Then out of nowhere hit a b in fifth positon on the a string. Dont adjust. If you hit it out of nowhere with mental preparation it will usually be correct. Do this a few times. Then repeat procedure on d string and g string. Practice this exercise everyday and change the notes.
Incidentally, it is the -no preperation/go for it procedure that allows the hands to automatically assume the correct position without mental interference of the wrong kind.
To improve the intonation of your scales you need to assemble them structurally. So first practice only the unisons, fourths and fifth notes in a kind of slow arpeggio. Then add the thirds and sevenths and finally add the 2nd and 6ths place precisley between the pitch you have chosen for the 3rd and sevenths and the tonics. Only then practice the scale.
Also study the uniform intonation section of `basics` very carefully.
Cheers,
Buri
About Buri's nos. 4 and 6, in my view the finger does not only glide along the string at a uniform pressure, as indicated by 6; the pressure needs to be flexible. Just as your head weight on the chin rest needs to adjust according to what you're doing with the left hand, your finger pressure needs to adjust also. Play using pressure if you need to, as long as you release this pressure during the shift before reapplying it. Thus you'll actually be using a variety of different pressures according to what you're playing.
Greetings,
yes. My point assumes one is referring to tehcnical shifts in scales. For pieces it depends , as you note, on what you are trying to express.
Cheers,
Buri
Buri, you made it perfectly pointing on all common situations. I'll just add about importance of violin's position: sometimes we can face a picture of student who moves an instrument during shifting, especially downwards. The reason lays in moving an arm only without elbow. It makes all shiftings not accurate and affects on intonation a lot. So, unfortunately, instead of straight, parallel to the floor shifting there takes place arch shaped arm movement which leads to changing an instrument position.
To do it correctly, we should pay our attention on the fact, that during shifting to higher positions, elbow should be lowered and vice versa.
I wrote about elbow movement during the only first five positions; after 5th position, an elbow will move to the left(shifting up), or to the right(shifting down).
Greetings,
what Rita is referring to also causes the correct relationship between contracting and extending muscle pairs. IE on the upward shift the dropped elbo lengthnes the triceps which complements the contraction of the bicep. and vice versa. Sometimes this necesesary cooperation isn`t functioning so well.
Cheers,
Buri
Hi Buri:
I agree with most of your posts, but not this one. Having tried it your way and the way I'm about to describe, I think this way is better because it minimizes motion and makes the motion more uniform, thus creating more accuracy and efficiency of movement.
I never move my wrist when I shift (or at least I try not to). I want my fingers in the same position on my pads and at the same angle to the fingerboard as much as humanly possible and this cannot be achieved if the wrist waggles back and forth before and after the finger moves. Any motion in the wrist and the finger is rolling on the surface of the string, changing angles, affecting pitch and the potential for speed.
So I shift by using the elbow only. The elbow closes or opens depending on which direction you are going and moves in or out depending on which string and how high or low the position is. Everything else stays the same.
I suspect that we place our thumb in a different place due to these different techniques. I try to use my thumb as a fulcrum - across from my second finger, centering my hand. So as my elbow opens and closes, the thumb slides with the hand either more on the side of the neck or more underneath as the elbow swings inward.
The wrist should always be straight, until you get above the shoulder of the violin of course.
Lisa
Greetings,
Lisa, it`s an interesting one. In particular this movement is associated with the St Petersburg school. There is an article on it at that Westbury House violin school you can find through Google. Another place I think this is implied/taugh is by Kievman in his book `Practicing the violin mentally/Physically. The third exercise in the book after vertical finger action and opening and closing of the firts phalange is preservingthe finger shape but changing note by movement of the wrist. At the bototm of the page he explains that this exerise is a necessary preparation for the strengthening and mkaing flexible of the writs for both vibrato -and= shifting.
Watching slowed down videos of the great players I have always observed this movement- especially Heifetz. In Szeryngs case through close up observation.
But it is -very- small and does raise the question of how one teaches it, (if at all) without raising precisely the problems you talk about.
Cheers,
Buri
Greetings,
sorry, I missed your other point about the wrist always being straight. This is not actually the most physically efficient position for the fingers to work. They are more relaxed with the wrist bent very slightly inwards(Alain mentioned 15 degrees as maximally efficcient). A person who typically demosntrates this kind of tehcnique is Milstein whos tremolo/trill stuff is possibly the best in history. Sometimes his wrist seems completely collapsed. Heifetz in slow motion again reveals a constantly changing wrist position and this is an integral part of his shifting technique.
Keeping the wrist straight is perhaps one of the genralizations we need to make to studnets along with `hand,arm, thumb work a sone unit` but the ultimate arbiter either way is going to be maximum efifciency in whatever one is trying to do,
I am idly speculating now thta one reason why the wrist movement does not disturb the position of the finger (it cannot be generalized thta this is true if it doesn`t have this effect on me or my students ;)) is that such a movement is a small arc which may be part of a larger pattern of arcs which occur when the elbow joint not only opens and closes but drops as Rita mentioned. In other words, its effect is compensation for an effect elsewhere that may be required in a particular playing style.
Cheers,
Buri
We can't keep wrist strait all the time. This method goes out of reality. Just if we try to shift up from, for example, formed third interval with 1-3 fingers to 10th with 1-4 fingers, there is no other way than turn a wrist inward or more towards fingerboard. Unless our hands and fingers are huge, like, probably, only Paganini had. It is just an example.
How can we vibrate with still wrist? What about chord technique, shifted chromatic glissando, at last, how to play in high positions without bending a wrist?
Haha Buri,
Now I feel like I'm with my students! I teach kids, so I teach them that their arm is a lollipop! LOL And the ball of the hand (thumb and second finger touching lightly and making a circle) is the pop on top of the "stick." If the pop falls off either side, then it isn't a lollipop anymore! :0)
But in reality, the wrist should be extremely relaxed and supple and what I call a straight line (I should have clarified) is from the inside of the arm up through the wrist to about mid muscle for the thumb, which makes you correct, that the wrist is leaning slightly inward (toward the body of the violin). I play very far back on my finger pads (as did Milstein! lol) so I need that angle to get that placement of my fingers. (But actually, though Milstein played that way and I learned much from him, I actually learned about using my fingers for depth of sound from a very strange character named Harry Shub in New York City. He had an incredibly rich, resonant sound and partially got it by playing so deep into his pads - what I call pads are the sticky part of the finger below the tip -opposite side of fingernail.) Does that make sense?
Anyway, once you can play you can break all the "rules." LOL But for a student to learn consistent shifting I do use a movement from the elbow - that also prevents squeezing as much too.
Rita: I use a wrist vibrato which falls backward, but would never shift from that position. And, as I said, of course, you adjust your wrist going above the shoulder of the violin. The point of my post was to keep the finger angle the same as much as possible in order to use the most efficient movement possible. Really, anyway you can do that is valid. I always think of everything in terms of speed. Will I have to play that very fast? If so, I don't want an extraneous movements. They slow you down and make you inaccurate. Just my take on it.
Lisa
PS Buri, I should add that I did learn what I call the "Old Russian school" technique first and then went to New York and changed to Galamian's methods. So I have done both. I have to say that I played a little out of tune all the time with the other method and I think it was because of the inconsistency of my hand position (and the placement of my thumb). Well, and also I didn't hear my notes in my head first! LOL Everything is so complicated.... :0)
There is already a lot of good advice here but I would like to add that you could try mapping out your finger board.If you have problems especially during recitals your brain needs to be preprogrammed in distances so that it can make the shift almost by itself.Map out each string by playing a scale using only one finger on one string.Mentally label each position as you arrive in it.From there you can make up excercises going from first position with a variety of finger combinations,each time label which position you are going to.After that you can move to different combinations 2nd to 4th etc.Each time asses the distance moved so that you are also sending spacial signals to your brain.
Greetings,
Lisa, its not shifting per se, but I have acquired anumber of kiddies who were never trained correctly to roll the elbow under the instrument. How do you go about teaching that?
One of the side effects of this is that moving over to the e stirng from the g string the wrist is forced to colapse inwards. Any ideas on this problem?
Janet- that's great. I wish one string one finger scales were taught a lot earlier. I think talentes kids sometimes getheld back by being forced into thinking in terms of 'now learn this position" when they do have the capability to map sound to fingerboard.
Cheers,
Buri
Oh no, it's me horning in again - but ... Have you ever seen Mimi Zweig's clip of her very first exercises with one of her young students, Buri? She does not address the elbow at all but gets the whole mechanism rolling from the very beginning in an interaction that looks so simple but must be well thought out. The little girl plucks various strings with her fourth finger in something like the fourth position gradually widening the distance between the strings she plucks. There is small but careful guidance by Mimi, not of the elbow, but of the hand. You once pointed out the relationship of the elbow to the fourth finger and this is the premise she seems to be working from. The elbow may move the hand, but the hand also determines the position of the elbow. I have used the video clip and the idea to help with my own fudged left elbow issue and up to now it feels like it may be more natural to be swinging the hand around via the elbow than using the elbow to swing the hand around if that makes sense. In any case, I have the impression that this little girl is not even conscious of moving her elbow. She is intent on getting her little finger over the correct string, and because her hand has been correctly placed and guided by the teacher, the elbow motion simply follows naturally and beautifully. I have been mesmerized watching her arm in the E G string crossings. I assume that later on the motion is transferred down to first position. Since I used the idea long after I had begun playing real music, I can see it as a tool for addressing the elbow issue.
The clip is here:
http://www.stringpedagogy.com/en/public/vol_1/01_003.htm
Lisa: I just read the "inside of the arm to thumb mid-muscle" part etc. and I think you just brought me closer to resolving an old issue. AND I have been too embarrassed to admit that I never really understood what "straight wrist" meant. And heck, it isn't straight all the way across from side to side, especially once you start reaching with the 4th & 3rd fingers. Heck, if you tried to keep all of it straight, you'd end up with ... what I had going a number of months ago!
Hi Buri, Janet and Inge:
You guys are great! Totally addictive!
OK, Buri, I teach the elbow much the same way Inge described, and Janet, I love doing those one finger scales (hard to play in tune!), but I do those later, maybe earlier would be better!
Buri,
I studied with Shirley Givens in New York (a Galamian student) and she revamped my technique. I've been teaching from her "Adventures in Violinland" so many years that they are programmed in my brain indelibly! LOL
So, there is a great "hit the target" exercise in the first year books to prepare the fourth finger and it involves swinging the elbow out to the left all the way, and then swinging it back to the right, under the violin until the fourth finger is over the target. So, what Janet wrote is right - I call the bow levels for each string "arm levels" and have transferred that terminology as well to the left hand - arm levels for the elbow for each string. If you make a very lightly touching circle around the neck with your thumb and second finger, you can learn about placement of the thumb too by swinging your elbow back and forth and finding a pendulum-like resting point for the elbow under each string - again, this keeps the finger angle the same on each string, hand position the same and makes everything kind of function from the elbow up. I imagine my elbow kind of like it is resting on a table and it supports everything above it so it can all relax. The paradox of that is to get the same feeling in the air without a place to rest it. Geez... it is hard to put this stuff in writing.
Also, for an advanced student to learn blocking (or people who are having a lot of trouble with finger/thumb placement) I use that changing 1/2 step pattern exercise. Does anyone else use that? Stephan Clapp taught me that in Aspen.
The pattern is blocking these steps: 1/2, whole, whole; whole, 1/2, whole; whole, whole, 1/2; whole, whole, whole. So if you started on E natural on the D string: E,F,G,A; E,F#,G,A; E,F#,G#,A; E,F#,G#,A#; and then modulate the whole thing up 1/2 step to F (shift/crawl) and do again all the way up the string until your fingers are crunching together! LOL
I teach that with the "bouncy" fingers/fuzz tones I described somewhere around here, and I teach it for kids who refuse to learn the names of the notes - they have to be able to call them out, and for intonation, and for the movement of the thumb for each of those patterns, and blocking...it is a great exercise.
Lisa
Lisa, many thanks for 1/2 step pattern exercise. I think it can solve lots of problems not only with difficulties in finger/thumb placement but also in our teaching approach.
BTW, I have a question about my student's left hand fingers placement: he has the long fingers, fingernails are long and very close to fingertips, tips are thin; also, he has ability to stretch fingers up to three positions without any difficulties. When he places fingers down on E string, I have a feeling that violin is too small for him; all fingers except of point are far away from fingerboard. I tried to lower his wrist, (it leads to collapsing wrist what about Buri wrote above), moved his elbow far to the left, tried to place his fingers slightly flat... at last I am thinking about turning his palm... I don't talk about it with student (he is adult beginner) until I'll make sure, that's what he needs. I don't want to change his position of an instrument (right/left) because it's in a proper connection to the bow side. Do you have some ideas?
Inge, I forgot: it's your thread! Excuse me, please! About your question: I think, you don't have to stay still on a stage; if you need to see other players, turn to them, but don't turn the only head, turn whole your body while you are playing. You will look like a very experienced professional:)
Please excuse me all who read it. Again my daughter, Inna logged me off, I just realized it, so read my name above as Rita Livs. My appologize...
Inna, no apologies to me -- it's Elizabeth's thread, and she's asking about SHIFTING! So I have to apologize to Elizabeth as well. Thank you for your answer anyway, Inna. I wasn't able to look at my partner and the music at the same time - I had it memorized but wasn't certain if I could rely on that in a performance situation because the various parts were so almost identical. The stands were parallel and my teacher stood quite far back from it and so ended up being "behind" me. I tried standing back as well, but since I need reading glasses which are set at a particular distance, that didn't work so I stepped forward again, all during that insance tempo. Turning to the side with Vln1 at my left would have meant trying to glance at the music by looking extremely right and possibly moving my head quite a bit to the right. I think we should have taken a moment to ensure that we could see each other. He could see me, but since he was leading that was barely important. Seeing the pianist was more important for vln1 I assume since the cues would be going back and forth between them?
Lisa, you may have brought me a whole step forward with what you are saying about thumb & 2nd finger, fleshy part etc. etc. My left hand technique is full of misconceptions and "garbage" and as long as I continue playing based on those misconceptions I will continue having the same problems or variations of the same. Most of what I formed in the way of basic technique happened in the first year with a destructive instrument. The adjustments and experimentations that followed in an attempt to get out of that guaranteed that my playing collapsed like a house of cards in a matter of months - a very frightening experience. Rebuilding took many times as long as the collapse and is still "in progress". I'm surprised I'm not surrounded by scaffolding.
Inna, doesn't the left hand "in a way" tuck itself away and under the neck as it approaches the E string so that there is less finger poking out to play (in perspective of your long-fingered student)? At least that's an image I'm working with at the moment, while glancing at a mirror once in a while to see whether the results "look right". Apparently there is more than one way under the sun to locate one's elbow.
I think we must remember that to hide a shift you must slide with so little finger pressure no note comes out. I'd do some galamian one finger and two finger scales. If you dont have the books i'll explain:
keeping constant bow speed play two or three or four notes to a bow and do a one finger 12 note scale on one string. The bow remains constant, and the idea is to have no sound between note, but dont shift too quickly. this can be done with 2 3 and 4 fingers and various bow divisions.
Going back to the elbow joint thing, if that's okay: actually there's a degree of upper arm movement during shifting as well. Just as in bowing, where we have to operate all sections of the right arm to create the 'straight' bowstroke, if we were to open the left elbow joint only, we would not only shift down the fingerboard but down towards the ground also. If you touch your fingers to your forehead, then open only your elbow joint, you'll find that eventually your forearm will be parallel to the floor.
Hi Rita:
You are welcome. Since you want to use the pattern, let me explain something else about it. If you use the bouncy finger technique that I use, when you pop up off the note to rest on the string (like a harmonic) you can use that relaxation point to slide your thumb up and down the side of the neck to find the most relaxed position for your thumb for that particular pattern. I move my thumb on almost every note in those patterns and over time I've learned where it is comfortable, so I no longer have to slide it around to "find it."
Also, if you are concerned about intonation or vibrato, then notice where you are hitting the string on your fingers. It should be dead center of the pad, not on the fingertip. If you can find that point in all your fingers, then lie them all on the string (doesn't matter if they are in tune) and try to find your elbow, wrist and thumb position that will support that finger angle. When you have that, your arm and hand should be pretty relaxed. I used to lay my fingers on a string, press down really hard, and then look to see if I had a line down the center of my fingers - if I lined my fingers up in sort of a diagonal, it would be a straight line down my fingers. Weird, huh?! LOL
On the long fingered violinist... that is a hard one - switch him to viola? lol I am teaching an adult beginner now who is over six feet tall - she has very big hands and long fingers too, but not the way you describe the tip (that is hard too - I usually advocate to keep clipping the nails short, way short, eventually the finger will pull back a bit from the nail). I still try to make sure that she has that circle inside the palm (as if she is holding a small ball in her hand. The thumb can come more forward and the violin more to the left (just move the right hand a bit more forward too). The elbow will be further to the left also. Past that, I don't know. I would have to experiment.
If the student is advanced enough that he can hear a scale good in his head, then why not have him experiment? Have him play each note very slowly and try to "center" his hand arm and thumb each time. See where it ends up. Sort of hang off the fingerboard by the arch in the finger (letting go of the thumb) then swing the elbow back and forth under the violin like a pendulum to find the centered point and slide the thumb up and down the side of the neck also to find the centered point for the hand. Of course, he can bend his wrist in too, but if there is any way to avoid that, I think you should if possible. Does that help??? :-/ Don't think about the rules... think about what works for him. If it works, and he can play in tune and accurately, well then... it works for him.
And another comment on that "hanging" idea (for Inge too). If you try grabbing onto the top of a door frame with your fingertips and bending your knees so you hang from your fingers, imagine that you are on a cliff and holding on for dear life. What position will you put your fingers in to hang on the longest? I've found that most people will use arched fingers on their pads - tips hurt too much and flat fingers collapse. So that is the position I try to use on the violin - it is the strongest position for the fingers to hold weight (and when you think about it, the elbow should feel "weighted" to be relaxed and centered).
So take that to your violin. Use your right hand to hold your violin stable (or if you use a shoulder rest then you will have to clench your shoulder and jaw - I don't recommend that!!). Then "hand your second finger on the fingerboard like on the door frame. Set it up in the same position - arched on pad. Hang your elbow down like it has a five pound weight attached - trust me, you'll go right to the place that your elbow can be most relaxed if you allow yourself to. Release your thumb completely so your elbow can move. Really, that is the feeling of weight your finger should have on the string. See if that helps find a good position for the elbow (you can do this on every string and every finger - or all fingers at the same time). Experimentation is a good thing!
Lisa
Lisa, thank you!!! You are great!!! I understand all your points very clearly because it's exactly the same what I do with my own hands and fingers since my student years. Do you play with shoulder rest? I do, in spite of it's not necessary for me, just habit. But I encorage all my students, especially beginners to use it to avoid tension in the left shoulder which can be transfered to other parts and to the bow side. What do you think about it? The more I play and teach, the more I'm getting unsure...
Lisa, I see you are familiar with Yankelevich method. Do you know if his book is translated into english and if it's in stock anywhere?
Thank you very much for helping me with my teaching question about my student. I'll try to move his violin slightly to the left and will check: maybe it have sence...
Rita:
:0)
I have no idea who Yankelevich is! Sorry!
I don't use a shoulder rest, but I learned on one. When I went to the Milstein Master Classes in Zurich, he humiliated all of us that used shoulder rests by saying in a voice full of distaste, "oh, you use that machine!" LOL So I went home and started experimenting and eventually stopped using it.
Now I teach my kids to balance the violin on their collarbone. If you bring your elbow more in front of you, so the violin is not hanging under your jawbone out to the left side, then it puts more of a strain on your bicep, but takes off all the tension everywhere else. So if the violin is balanced on collarbone and left hand, then shoulders don't have to be squeezed all the time. If you lift up your chin off the chinrest and don't clasp the neck with your left hand, then you can actually tap on the surface of the violin top and watch it teeter-totter back and forth when it is balanced. Gravity holds it there, especially if you hold the scroll higher than the chinrest. I'd rather work with gravity than against it.
When I shift I do bring my shoulder up, but less so if I hold my violin up! ;-) Actually, repetitive motion injuries happen from the same motion all the time but also from keeping an immobile position for too long. Our bodies were designed to move. So by not using a shoulder rest, I can move my violin all over and move my shoulder and arm also. It actually makes me far more relaxed than I was when I used it.
And, as much as people say that the shoulder damps the sound, I've tried tests with no shoulder rest and all kinds of new ones that various violinists have invented and have never come away deciding that the shoulder cut down any resonance. So, I switched permanently.
Lisa
Lisa, thank you again. I have to experiment it to accept. Sounds interesting. I read a lot from Buri too, and this question makes me curious...
Yankelevich was a student of Yampolsky, teacher of L. Kogan, E. Gillels, E.Grach and other famous violinists. He created the teaching method which was built on the fundament of traditional world best violinistic schools. Today his method is very popular in Russia. Among his students I can name V. Spivakov, V. Tretyakov, L. Grindenko, L. Markiz. Among his writing works, the book "My School of Violin Playing" became most popular.
Hi Rita:
It was nice writing back and forth on this subject - I love teaching technique. I think if you have the technique down, you can play anything you want musically. (My students are not always as in love with it as I am! LOL)
Happy Experimenting. I'd love to look at that book if I come across it. I am not the researcher that some are on the board though...
The advice I give is a combo of the old Russian school that I learned and saw/heard exemplified in Milstein and the Galamian technique I learned in New York. I believe also that there is a best of both worlds.
Happy Holidays to you!
Lisa
Hey Rita:
I might add about shoulder rests... that they do not prevent tension in the shoulder/neck area. The violin is slanted and weighted toward the ground in almost every shoulder rest position, thus gravity is still pulling it down. Though the shoulder rest conforms to the shape of the shoulder more than without one, you still have to clench your shoulder and jaw together to prevent your violin from falling. Try it... (lift up your chin and play, see where your violin ends up). If you balance your violin on your collarbone, you can play without your chin on the chinrest (actually I don't put my chin on the chinrest, but more centered over the tailpiece). It isn't great playing because the violin will follow the bow direction back and forth because it is so loose and relaxed (but your violin will also not slip down your stomach either), but it demonstrates that you don't need to use your shoulder and chin the same way at all.
Lisa
I haven't been able to ditch the shoulder rest completely but recently I started, when I feel uncomfortable with my position, playing a few minutes without the shoulder rest to get a better feeling of balance and freedom. Then I add the rest, which I still need, maintaining that feeling. The main change that I hvae made which happens to help me is not to consider it a SHOULDER rest. I relate to it mentally as though I were in fact resting it on the collar bone and that seems to put things much more in their natural state.
Lisa, you have given me a lot of food for thought. I think everyone who begins is induced to play more on the fingertips but I had a feeling that one can overdo that and more sdpecifcially that I have been, and am thus missing out on some important element (as usual).
Lisa, I would talk with you for hours because my view to v-n technique is same as yours, even about this 'strait line down fingers' which I discovered too (no one literature, or school described it:) I remember I was about to hurt my student's fingers (same adult student) when I "drew" this lines on his finger pads using my sharp nail to show him the place where string contacts w/finger(criminal:)
About shoulder rest... OK, Lisa, This technique I have to experiment myself (I think, I got all points about how to try it; yes, my violin rests easy on my collarbone, and that's what I always check in my students posture), but I think about this additional support of violin with left thumb, so now left hand is responsible not only for correct intonation and finger technique, but for holding an instrument as well, especially while shifting (at last, back to topic, or somebody will demerit our long conversation; actually all this staff have a close relationship with this topic. TRUE?)...So, will it affect to development of finger technique, especially 'vertical'? And what about discomfort from hard edge of instrument touching collarbone without some pad support under it? (I'm about beginners). Just time to get habit?
LOL... Rita, in California we use pens and not fingernails to draw things! ;-)
As for the position... well it gets harder and harder to explain in detail in writing...
I don't find that the bottom of the violin hurts the collarbone if you hold the violin up high enough. There is a cute segment in the video "Small Wonders" when Issac Stern walks through the classroom and raises the violin of every student as he passes them.
If the scroll is at a lower level than the bridge, you have to grab onto the violin with your shoulder to prevent it from sliding out from under your chin (that annoying force called gravity again). That is what makes the violin hurt on the collarbone. If you have the violin balanced and you are not squeezing, then your head hardly has to touch the violin at all (especially for children) and there should be no discomfort. As the children progress the "feeling" becomes normal.
I don't know what you mean by "vertical" finger technique so can't answer that.
As for the shifting problem when the violin is "held" with the left hand due to placement on collarbone... well, I don't hold my violin with my left hand. I balance it between my thumb and first finger (base knuckle) and use the structure of my arm and wrist (as I mentioned above) to actually "hold" the violin. Really my violin is balanced between two points - my collarbone and the first finger joint at the base of the finger. My elbow is actually holding up the violin. Hard to explain, getting tired now.
Have a very nice holiday, Rita.
Lisa
Greetings,
Lisa, I takeyour argument about teh structure rtaher than the -thumb- even furtther than you;)
That is, I do not belive it is corretc to say the left thumb is now supporting the violin because that presupposes the absence of hand, arm, back, spine, legs and the earth. Sort of like that cat in Alice that disappears except for its grin.
I agree that the colla rbone problem is not so serious.
As far as fingeer action is ocncerned I find that without a rest the finger action is sometimes closer to the ideal. Taht is less vertical and more a pulling from the base joints that preserves the shape of the fingers very well. When I watch Misltein play the cocnept of vertical finger action seems almost odd at times...
Cheers,
Buri
Agreed!
Lisa
I used to have a lot of trouble with shifting past third position. If you wanna really tweek your shifting you should practice Vivaldi's Spring from the Four Seasons.
It has a lot of second position, which I used to have trouble with, as it is an awkward shift. It also goes up to seventh and back down really fast. I don't really like scales because they just go up and down and don't really help your string-crossing techniques and stuff.
I've also been tinkering around with single-string scales and 4 octave scales. Rather than making practice seem like a chore, make it fun by adding spice to the way you practice shifting. :)
Buri, this may seem to be an odd question, but when you talk about finger action as involving a pulling from the base joints, is that on the way up or the way down? I won't admit to why I'm asking this until I see the answer. Another thing: originally the violin tended to rest somewhat on the base joint of my first finger rather than having anything to do with the thumb which, due to the distorted shape of the violin neck, never got to have any kind of decent role. Would that have been good?
Lisa, thank you. You 'looked' tired yesterday when I noticed the time you responded! I understand you: I have the permanent working 'tape' in my head with things what have to be done on time. And people's needs are usually first in this big line...
And Buri, I got what you mean writing about Alice's cat... When I look through my bedroom's window, I always 'see' these grins from 5(!) cats living on the backyard because I feed them. They are so small but eat...oh,my...! Where is Peter with his compressed air? The same grin I'll 'see' from my left hand if I remove my shoulder rest???
Yesterday I made an experiment with my daughter (a friend of v.com too) I was helping her to practice 1st violin orchestra part from Tscaik. 'Capriccio Italien'. The 1st theme she played on G string sounded so weak, especially right before allargando, (all 'down bows' part). So I asked her to take off her shoulder rest. First, it was really hard, she complained on big discomfort, especially in her left shoulder. I put my hand on it and pushed down asking her to save this 'feeling' of gravity. I noticed how she tried to manipulate between playing in the high position on G string and supporting an instrument. But I didn't take her attention on it, all attention was put into sound quality, vibration, 'short down bows' technique and so on. At last,I let her put on shoulder rest. This theme appeared bright and completed. Buri, that's what you wrote about already in your studio. But if we put on S.R. after practicing without it...(?) I know, it sounds really weird, but result... if you hear it(!?)
Lisa, about vertical finger action: I mean only shifting (Not out of this thread:)
You know how special and unique New York is? Even some teachers there use sharp nails instead of soft pen! :)
Have a wonderful holydays!
Greetings,
Inge, i thought youmight ask that one! You are quite right to query it. It refers only to the lifting action. The fingers still drop onto the strings usinf primarily gravity. Basically the shape shouldn"t change too much.
Rita, I manage to stay out of the shoulderrets debate (hah!) by pointing out that it is the tool that comes to the body and not the otehr way round. If one ocassionally relearn this point then there is nothing wrong with using a rest (except it pushes the bow arm up too high- ooops, bad dobby, didn"t say that!!!)
The simpelst way to relearn a natural feleing is to take it off , experience the discomfort and see what comes out,
Cheers,
Buri
Hello,
I came into this discussion a bit late... and I'm sorry to say I didn't quite read EVERY post made heh, but if you're having problems with shifting, I have a few things to say.
1) Try practicing the shifts with "shifting notes." To explain this if you're not familiar with the term, take an example: Imagine you are in first position on your E string shifting from an F# to a C in third position. Practice the shift slowly, while sliding on the first finger from first to third position, from an F# to an A. After this shift is complete, put your third finger down to sound the C. In this situation, the third position A would be the shifting note.
2) As I think Buri said before, make sure your left hand stays completely coordinated. Don't let your fingers get ahead of your wrist and arm, and vice versa.
3) Know the configuration of your fingers BEFORE you put them down. This goes in any position, but it is especially important in shifting. If you are shifting from a hand configuration where your third finger would be a low third finger to a hand configuration where your third finger would be regular, make sure you account for this by changing the configuration of the fingers before you put them on the strings. This will eliminate the need to correct the note after you put your finger down.
In terms of intonation, all I can really tell you to do is practice your scales in all different key signatures so you know hand/finger configurations well, and most importantly, hear each note in your head before you play it. Although this may not seem like much, there is a huge mental/physical connection. If you know what the note is supposed to sound like, it will most likely be right. If you have no idea what note you're going for, then your fingers will have no idea where to land on the string.
Thats just my 2 cents...
Alex
Hi Alex,
The idea of "shifting notes" is new to me but it's interesting. Did you choose "A" as the shifting note because you appear to be in the key of G? Is this an exercise, or is it the way you shift?
For missing shifts due to performance anxiety, Elizabeth, you might focus on trusting your fingers during practice so you don't try to second guess them when you feel the pressure is on. Learn to trust them like you would do during improvisation. There's a lot of truth in what Owen said Camilla said :)
Also, remember if you end the note in tune the listeners ear is very forgiving. Being able to adjust to the correct pitch accurately and quickly is good training for starting on the correct pitch I think, because it means you both hear yourself and mentally hear where you should be.
As I always like to see as many ways as possible of doing things, I'm curious how you find your way into third position, Jim. I know what Alex is doing, because it's the way I was taught: To be in third position on the E string your hand is in a position that means your first finger would be playing the note that your third finger previously played, which would be the A.
When I was first learned to shift, I was taught to first briefly play whatever note my first finger should be over even if that wasn't my targetted note in order to make sure I was indeed in that position, and then to play the real note. So after shifting back down to first position, if I was to play an E with the 4th finger, I was first supposed to touch upon the F# and then play the E as a way of making sure that I was exactly in 1st position. That activity then got phased out as the hand became certain of its position in shifting.
But I'm sure that there must be other ways of shifting, such as locating the appropriate note with another finger. If I am to play B in 3rd position with the 2nd finger I suppose I could shift up using my 2nd finger as the "locator" for the hand, and the other fingers would have to fall in line accordingly - but when beginning to shift I think that many choices would be confusing which is why many of us are taught shifting based on the first finger.
How do you find your position in shifting? (I'm not necessarily happy with the first finger option for ALL cases myself.)
Hi Inge,
After I posted, I remembered I was taught in a similar way. The exercise was something like F#, sliding it to A, then B with the 2nd finger, sliding back down from B to G, then lifting the 2nd and playing F# with the first. Doing it using all the halfsteps on all the strings, with various beginning and ending fingers, in whatever positions you wanted to go from and to. I remember my teacher wrote some of it out to get me started, on some kind of thick yellow paper :) Maybe it was on a folder.
Since you asked, as for what I do now, I don't know :) Probably something similar to that, with the audible slides removed. If I was going to play F#, C, A, I wouldn't worry about the A until it was time to play it, and the C is just there without thinking about it. I don't do this professionally, so consider what I say in that light. That decision was at least partly my own choice though :)
I want to add that naturally part of the exercise would be for instance shifting from 3rd finger A in 1st pos to 1st finger A in 3rd pos. That means your "shifting note," could never actually be fingered, else it would sound. My other shifting is the same, without a shifting note, unless there's some reason to the contrary I guess.
Hiya Jim,
Good to know you got it figured out :). By the way to answer your question earlier I just used the F# to A to C example because it was the first one that popped into my head heh, but I guess it would assume you were in G major, yes, or playing with those certain accidentals in a different key. Anyway... To really get the feeling for positions you just kind of have to get used to what they feel like I guess... If one isn't comfortable shifting from first to third position, that just takes practice. My teacher once made an interesting chart showing approximately where on the violin the hand should be in each position all the way up to 9th or 10th... I'll have to check that out again soon. The exercise was similar to the one you said, but it was shifting from first to second, first to third, first to fourth and back down, etc etc. Nobody can really tell you where exactly the hand should be positioned in each position as this is a very personal thing that varies among violinists. One must just get comfortable enough to know where he or she is on the violin in each position, and this only comes with practice, experience and exercises. The shifting notes example I gave is just an example of one of the many ways I was taught to learn where and how to shift.
Alex
Hi,
Having been through this personally and in teaching, the surest way to secure shifting is through the use of intermediate notes (i.e. which finger gets you from one position to another). If the intermediate note is out of tune, odds are that the shift will be out of tune. One good way to practice is to practice slowly with all intermediate notes clearly sounded. That way you can control the accuracy of you changes of place on the violin.
As for the intonation issue, it is usually due to a weakness in hearing (Flesch also talks about this at lenght). Although there are some exercises to help, one good trick for intonation and training your hearing recommended by Henryk Szeryng is to practice scales note by note comparing to open strings. This will sharpen your hearing. And remember one thing, perfect intonation on the violin is actually an impossibility. Its actually how quickly you correct a note (usually with vibrato) that gives the impression of playing in tune.
Hope this helps. Cheers!
Christian, I want to make sure that I understand what you mean by intermediate note. Does that mean that for example if I'm shifting to third position on the A string and the first note I will be playing is E (2nd finger) that my *intermediate note* is E played with the 2nd finger? Or is my intermediate note D with 1st finger always being my "reference point"?
Greetings,
if your first finger is on b on the a string and you want to play an e in third position then the intermediate note is first finger d.
Cheers,
Buri
"if your first finger is on b on the a string and you want to play an e in third position then the intermediate note is first finger d."
Er, so the intermediate note has to do with the finger & note I've just left? I mean, you wrote "If your first finger is on b on the a string". So, I'm trying to get whether this has anything to do with what I've just played and which finger I've played it with. If I've just played C with the 2nd finger on the A string (still in 1st position) is my intermediate note then based on my 2nd finger (E w. 2nd finger on A string)?
If it's not that, then I guess it still has to do with what I was first taught ... use the 1st finger to find the position = 1st finger as intermediate note. (??)
Inge, this shifting (2nd finger, 'c' note on A string to 'e' note, 3rd position) can't have intermediate note because you gave an example of shifting SAME finger. You can find an answer on this (very important!) question in Suzuki books starting from 4th level. There you can see exactly which notes are intermediate and how to practice them.
Rita, tell us. Don't make us scrounge up a Suzuki book.
Greetings,
the rules of shifting I use (or perhaps not..) are:
1) ascending/descending with different fingers in a slur, shift on the finger already on the string-IE use intermediates.
2)ascending/separete bows use the finger that you arer going to and not the intermediate.
3) higher finger to lower finger- use finger you are going to finsih on.
4) decending- always use finger already on the string.
Cheers,
Buri
I was looking mostly for the definition of what was meant by "intermediate". So it's the finger that helps you achieve the shift but is not the finger that will play the note you are shifting to. You're not really shifting with a finger, though, you're actually shifting the hand and transporting all four fingers and thumb along with it - so your intermediate finger is kind of a felt reference point, right? In the beginning when learning this we actually sound the intermediate note a bit to get the sense of that, and later we don't sound it anymore because in an actual performance that would sound odd. Now I understand a whole bunch of things. Thank you.
I began my first shifting (to 3rd) exercise about 3 months ago. Besides this "first finger slide to 3rd finger location" to get me in the correct spot, my teacher told me to notice when the top of my wrist bumped the upper bout. That's another gauge of where you are. Now when shifting...yes I use what you are referring to as the intermediate finger to get there along with that bump on the upper bout. It's truly amazing what practice does to get you in the correct location.
Buri,
that would be more of the french concept of shifting then, i guess as opposed to the russian. not many people make these distinctions anymore but i thought i should add that of course the shift changes depending on what you want it to sound like or whether you want it audible at all.
Owen, since everything is coming up Russian in my life (sigh) what is the Russian concept?
Buri is correct.
There are four kinds of shiftings:
1) Through open strings;
2) On the same finger;
3) From highest finger to lowest;
4) From lowest to highest.
When we talk about intermediate notes (what about Christian wrote) we keep in mind 3rd kind, descending shifting and 4th kind, ascending shifting.
For example, if we need to move on the E string from 3rd finger in 3rd position (c-note) to 1st finger, 1st position (F-note), we slide 3rd finger down until we get A-intermediate note; after that, we place 1st down and lift 3rd. (3rd kind)
Another example: we should move from 2nd finger, A string, 1st position (C-note) to 4th finger, A string, 3rd position (G-note). We shift 2nd until we get E-intermediate note in 3rd position; after that, we place 4th finger (4th kind).
(Buri, Please, correct me if I'm wrong. Thank you).
Hi,
By intermediate note, I mean the finger that gets you from one place to the next. It's the finger that gets you into position and helps you measure the distance. For example, if you are on the A string in first position and go from B first finger to F in third position. The finger that gets you there is one going to D in the third position. On the way down it would be the opposite, the third finger would bring you back down from third to first position.
A same finger shift, is a same finger shift. In a scale it's different. For example if you have 123 shift higher, 1 get you to the new position. On the way down 321 then 1 get you down to the next position, so it would be 321(1)321, the middle 1 and last 1 being the same. It's hard to explain here. There are detailed discussions of this in Flesch's Art of Violin Playing and the Art of Practicing the Violin by Gerle.
Hope this helps. Cheers!
Buri, why are you doing it differently for slurred vs. separate (your bullets 1 & 2)?
I'm still not sure what I do yet. I'm trying to figure it out. I think I simply always shift on the finger that was down.
Greetings,
Jim, what I describe is actually pretty much what was advocated by Auer and is more Russian than French which would tend to use the intermediate note approach a lot more- hence it isoften called the french shift.
The reasoning behind the difference bettween slurred and unslurred is, I think, to do with naturalness of conncetion and musical line at leats to some extent. If you were to play 1st finger b to 2nd finger e on the a string in a slur, then the French shift is secure and much the way the voice does it. If you were to do the same thing with a separate bow then where does the bow change? on the new note in which case the disconnected internmediate note becomes a new additive rather than a natural part of moving from one note to the next. or on the before starting the movement in which case it is not really so clear where precisly the new note is occuring,
There is also a clear technical connection betweeen one finger predominating and the bow changing.
Cheers,
Buri
Thanks, Christian. By now I have a name to the concept. The first thing I started questioning is whether we actually shift "on" any finger. With my overactive imagination I found myself actually transporting my hand "on" the finger which gave an unfortunate stiff feeling. Later on I switched to a mental image of the hand transporting my fingers and any "shifting finger" became a "location feeler" if it was an intermediary finger. For the physical aspect of shifting that seemed to release a lot of tension and worked for me.
I developed quite an ambivalence for the 321(1)321 downshift in scales. I had gone through the stage of sounding the 1st finger when first learning to shift down before playing the 321 and over time the (1) started to disappear until my hand simply went down to first position and the 321 would smoothly play itself out. We'd gone on to other things in my lesson so when we finally reviewed it my teacher reminded me of the *intermediate finger* before I started playing. I went to shift down as usual and start playing the 321 and as my third finger was going down I stopped the action and first touched base with my 1st finger, wondering why this was necessary, and the action became jerky and disjointed. That was for a simple D+ scale. Strangely enough my Eb scale which involves the the 4th finger in 4321 AND 4th position to 1st remained smooth in the downshift while the D+ and its 3rd position companions (G, for example) were clumsy and awkward for a long time. That's when I started wondering whether there was a point or a role other than locating to spot to the 1st (intermediary) finger and I'm still wondering.
If I'm descending from say an E+ scale from the 4th position the process for me feels like [4321 - shift-hand-into-1st-pos - 4321]. Am I missing something that I should be doing? I.e. would 4321(1)4321 be an intermediary stage before doing what I'm doing now, or is there something about that (1) which all good violinists do because it has some kind of role? I'm not even sure how I would "do" the (1) or what it (the 1) is doing. Does it kind of gently lay on the string without sounding while 4321 are playing, having been quickly put down (for some reason) before the "4" is played?
I suppose when the function is understood, the form becomes clear.
Somewhere between Buri's most recent post and Owen's older one I just discovered now I'm catching on to the musical and sound factor, i.e. "what it is supposed to sound like". It often happens with me that when I have a musical concept in my mind the physical action comes much more naturally of itself being transported by the idea or sound in mind (along with technique, of course). I think this discussion is bringing me, at least, from a very utilitarian idea of intermediary fingers to perhaps a musical one -- especially in the context of the slurs.
Is the intermediary note sometimes actually heard or 'almost heard' like perhaps a suggestion of a glissando or something like that, or does it act as a bridging of one sound into the next in the example of the slur? I'm thinking here in a musical context rather than physically getting there for the purpose of intonation.
I'm assuming the slur example is when you are moving along the same string. The piece that I sight read a while back to see what I was doing doesn't have that (La cinquantaine: G. Marie). The shift into 3rd position on the 2nd finger (E on A string) happens on the third note which is slurred from the 2nd note. So there is E on D (1st finger), a slurring of open A and E on A in 2nd position. What I instinctively did was to play the first E, then while I was playing the open A my hand shifted into third position while my 2nd finger tingled in anticipation of landing on the E. There was nothing about the 1st finger, maybe because it was on another string. Does that seem right?
Inge,
The reason we use these "intermediary" or "shifting" notes is to get rid of "jumpy" shifting. Instead of hopping from finger to finger in a different place on the violin, keeping a finger on the violin at all times (with some exceptions) helps immensely as a sort of "check" on the shift before the note is actually sounded. In the example you stated about the E on the D string to the E on the A string in third position, I would shift on the first finger on the D string, but get the second finger ready to land on the E. This way there is no second-guessing where the note is, and overall it makes the shift feel much more natural and comfortable. This seems like instinct for me... maybe its just because that was the way I was taught to shift, but trust me... Get to know the fingers you shift on as well as the finger you use to actually sound the note you are aiming for after the shift is complete... It will help you immensely :)
Alex
But my shifting isn't jumpy. It's a smooth motion with the hand and I derived that smooth motion by initially gliding a finger along the string in that "intermediary" kind of way, and to my ear the note I play after shifting is in tune. So either it's a device to get you to reach that point, or it's actually also used musically in some kind of other way if people continue with the method. I kind of symbolically do stuff with my first finger because it's supposed to do stuff, but I don't seem to actually be using it to help me shift. The musical aspect though made sense to me.
if you want to hear something interesting, listen to ida haendels performance of the wieniawski scherzo tarantella. on the shift from the fourth to fifth group of triplets everybody i have ever heard uses the second finger as the intermediary to the fourth finger G. Ida haendel however plops the fourth finger down immediately and does a fast slide up there (old russian), but with enough left hand pressure that it creates an awesome effect that i can't seem to duplicate for the life of me without sounding stupid.
You mean Ida puts down the fourth finger and THEN slides into position? Or shifts to position and then plops down the fourth? I think you mean the first version, though. I think I'm going to have to rethink shifting either way, because I simply shift up with my fingers kind of hovering over the strings, especially the one that will be doing the playing, and then the finger plays its note. Apparently it's not that simple.
Greetings,
Alex, you make some good points but I think we may have to disagree to differ over the smooth versus jumpy argument. The shift that does not use the intemdiary note is everybit as smooth as the classical /french shift. It in no way implies less contact with the instrument. It is also refereed to as the romantic shift and is given a great deal of atention in its own section in Fischer's Basics as is the classical shift. Ultimately Whichever one uses is based on whatever stylistic/musical/techncial considerations are prevalent at a given moment.
Heifetz used the classical/french shift more earlier in his career and later realized that it was possible to 'go for broke' a little more with the other kind of shift and there was a slight change in his technique over time in this regard. One reason Ida Haendal is so good at all kind sof shifts but especially the romatic one is her ability to shift like a singer. Taht is she moves-extremely- rapidly to a point just below the note and then slows the shift down at the last instant. This kind of control is well worth developing.
In general, a performance that uses priamrily french shifts (especially romantic music)will lose a little drama.
Cheers,
Buri
I have a feeling that the smooth/jumpy idea does hold merit in the case of a beginner just learning the shift. The initial reflex can be to lift the hand right off and plop it down into the next position. By insisting that the beginner glide his/her finger along the string while shifting the teacher is ensuring that the hand also follows the path that the gliding finger imposes on it which is the required straight and smooth motion -- that's how I'm extrapolating it. I imagine the other fine points come later.
Hello again,
Thanks for your input Buri, but I think you took my post a little out of context... I was talking from a strictly technical and personal point of view... I'm not saying there's anything wrong with the "romantic shift" as you put it, (hey I use it sometimes too depending on the context of the shift :) ) but I was just saying that in general, one can expect better and smoother results faster and more consistently with the classical shift.
Alex
now im just confused. the way i was taught it the french shift uses the intermediary note whearas the russian concept you plop down the final finger and slide it up to where it needs to be. Now which is romantic and whatever?
Since the thread is about playing in tune, does anyone here have experience with the little electronic devices used to show whether you're in tune or not? I'm curious about them.
Elizabeth, is any of this useful by the way?
Greetings,
Alex me old fruit and nut. Your message contradicts itself. You are repeating the idea that in general the classical shift is better smoother, more reliable.
I don"t have the energy to repeat my original response to this claim which is that it is not true, otherwise people would not use the romantic shift. Techncially it just depends on mastery of both. Musicaly it depends on the individual.
Owen:
romantic/russian
classical/french
Cheers,
Buri
JIm, this board and all otehr boards I have ever used on the Internet begin somewhere and stay roughly on topic but lead to otehr places after a certain point as per the norms of converstaion. Your comment seems inappropriate to me.
No, your comment is inappropriate. I'm not trying to steer the topic, just reminding people my post is not off topic.
Cheers
True enough Buri. I'm not trying to say that the classical shift is better by any means... and I guess it was ignorant of me to semi-imply that... I just haven't personally had as much experience with the russian form of teaching, specifically shifting obviously heh. If it is within a performer's technical grasp to use either shift, then by all means its fine with me :). I was just saying that for me, because it was the way I personally was taught originally, classical shifting seems more natural. I understand this is not the case for everyone though... I stand corrected. :)
Alex
Greetings,
Jim the conversation evolved into a seroius discussion about aspects of technique that do relate to playing.
You wrote suggesting that this was off topic as though you have some kind of power of decision making. The discussion on this list has always floated pretty freely and when we get comments from people trying to control things (yes I do attribute those motives to you) other s become reluctant to write. I
was offended by your remark and since I cannot be bothered to debate this kind of stuff anymore I shall simply stop reading this discussion. No loss perhaps, but there you go.
Shifting and vibrato are top on my list of techniques to catch up on since I returned to the violin.
I'm definately improving, but I can't believe how slow it is coming - no doubt a combined function of lack of ability and old age...;)
I'm playing Kreisler's Liebesleid...I'm not shifting properly (i.e sul A, D) but am shifting into third for much of it...and it's REALLY helping. I've also ordered Kreisler's rendition of Londonderry Air...I'm very familiar with the tune and since he plays it all over the place, I'm really hoping it will help me solidify my shifting and help me really learn where the notes are higher up on the neck.
I don't find the scales are helping me as much with notation/intonation as tunes are...
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December 20, 2004 at 06:35 PM · Camilla wicks says that technique is simply a state of mind. I think intonation definetely is, i mean, okay it needs tons of practice but once you get somewhat consistant you realize its just a way of thinking about it. I'm curious, can you describe to me how exactly you shift on the violin?