high bridge = better articulation?

November 3, 2004 at 07:19 AM · Greetings,

Steve Perry and a couple of other knowledgeable people have discussed bridge heights on this list. I am not competent in this area but I would note that Sarasate had the strings very close to the fingerboard and his articulation wasfine. Heifetz had his a little higher iz think but, he was using gut strings. I think ifyou started doing this with synthetics there is a high risk of damaging the nerve endings.I have a high bridge on my violin becuas eit has problems that are bets resolved thta way. But they are relatively close to the fingerboard because i og to a luthier who is very skilled at carving banana shaped fingerboards. Very expensive too,

Cheers,

Buri

November 3, 2004 at 08:10 AM · the closer they are the easier it is for me, but that could be a personal thing.

November 3, 2004 at 03:03 PM · My first violin had a distorted/badly set neck which didn't allow for the bridge to be brought down to the optimimum height. My experience albeit as a beginner since it was my first year:

- developed a tendency to press too hard into the strings = bad technique

- slowed down fast passages

- strain on the fingers for high positions because you have to press a lot harder

- huge callouses

- humungous pressure needed on strings in high position

I'm so glad I don't have that violin anymore!

How can a high bridge and high sitting strings be good for playing? Would another way of looking at it be to see if any of the well known violinists use high bridges?

November 3, 2004 at 06:22 PM · Your observations are definately accurate. I think my technique all through high school was limited by the high bridge on the instrument I had then (in addition to my laziness, of course, which was the primary limiter). When I acquired a very low-action instrument, I could play a lot more. Sadly, it didn't have a very good tone, so I ended up sticking with my original one. I didn't realize at the time that strings or setup would probably have fixed this problem. I have always found low-bridge instruments to be easier to play faster and with less pressure, though sometimes they can make less power.

As several people have noted, bridge height is very much a function of neck and fingerboard angles. But any competent luthier should be able to discuss setup alternatives with you.

Another thing to try if it is hard to play in high positions is different strings. I have found vast differences in string models in their playability. It ought to correlate to tension of the string, but I haven't been able to make the correlation. On my current instrument (medium action), I find Dominants somewhat hard to play, but Evahs (high tension?) and Olivs and Violinos(low tension gut) much better and about equally playable. You might also try low or thing tension strings, from a kind of strings that comes in 3 weights. (Not sure which ones they are as I always get middle myself.)

The bridge is certainly probably a bigger factor, but don't overlook strings, as they are much easier to experiment with. When I switched from Dominants to Evahs it was a revelation to me...the instrument became much easier to play fast and in high positions. (On the other hand, it was a good instrument to start with, and I don't know if the Evahs would make as much of a difference on an instrument that was harder to play high, such as my older instrument, which may have needed a setup change.)

Off topic, I just (last night) put on Vision Titanium Solo, with a Goldbrokat E (saves you like 12 bucks vs VT e), and dang...I might be doing back to Tomastic (sic). These strings have none of the problems I have observed with Dominants on this instrument, and wow...the sound. And to get back on topic, they are also very playable (about the same as Evahs, I think). And the power...good grief. After ripping through a few 4-note chords in Bach, my left ear had a bit of temporary hearing loss. Needless to say, I let up on the bow pressure. These are the most powerful strings I have ever played on, and seem at first test to have as nice a tone as Olivs, though different. I can't wait to find an excuse to perform solo with them.

November 3, 2004 at 06:32 PM · My bridge is also higher than most bridges, I too find it harder (well, maybe more painful) in higher postitions. I don't really like it all that much.

But I have a question: Do more expensive violins tend to have higher bridges like that? Because my violin at school I can tell is a cheap one, and it has a low bridge, while my actual violin is more of an expensive beginner one and like I said, has a higher bridge.

November 3, 2004 at 06:44 PM · A sudden thought: who is a greater expert on the functionality of a violin - a luthier or a violinist? (I'm already anticipating an answer: it depends on the luthier and the violinist.) But would it make sense to bring the violin in to a competent luthier and ask his assessment of the set up in terms of playability. (Hoping he won't be greedy and do needless setup just to earn money.) With my first violin one luthier commented, "I can't imagine how you were ever able to play this instrument." and the other warned me never to play it again. It was not a matter of simply changing the bridge - it was a really badly made instrument. You simply have a high bridge.

I'm still wondering about the articulation explanation. Does that mean: the high strings force you to raise and lower your fingers more, therefore forcing an articulation exercise so to say - um, discouraging minimal finger action?

Hehe, I once played a fiddler's violin and got an instant panic attack because I thought I'd lost my bowing technique: kept hitting other strings. Then I remembered the flat bridges that fiddlers prefer for their double stops and relaxed.

November 3, 2004 at 06:52 PM · As to whether better student instruments have higher bridges than cheap ones, I'm not an expert, but here's my two cents: I don't think you can generalize too much, though there's probably some truth to the observation.

I've played a student instrument that cost about $700 that had a high bridge, but a bright sound and a lot of power. I suspect that the maker used the high bridge to compensate for other weaknesses (cheap varnish, thick plates) and still make a decent sound. But the price was some playability. I think that instrument was Chinese (no name). I've played a Karl Kofner factory instrument that had a low bridge, great playability, but a nasal A string and low power and sound. I think it cost a bit less than the Chinese, but not sure as I bought it used. When I sold it, the shop told me they would try to sell it for $500.

Overall, I haven't found a lot of correlation between price and action, though I've never seen an expensive instrument (say, even over $1000) with a really excessively high action.

It is largely a matter of personal preference. Sarasate, and I believe Paganini used very low actions. I've seen gut-string instruments with very high actions (though I used wound gut with my instrument without changing the action). Go figure.

November 4, 2004 at 09:25 AM · Anyway, how high is the normal (between at end of fingerboard and top of the strings)?

November 4, 2004 at 11:25 AM · Set up to reasonable standards is best. Standard stop and neck (more or less - ratio is important), standard neck angle or at least break angle over the bridge, standard curve to the top of the bridge, standard height at the nut, standard relief in the fingerboard, standard clearance at the end of the fingerboard. Should yield a standard playing violin.

I generally set up violins with 3.25 mm height for the E sting and 5.75 mm for the G. For average amateur players, I lower these to 3 mm and 5.3 mm when I sell the violin. For very strong players, I may add some relief to the fingerboard. At the nut, I leave the strings relatively high at first. I set up my own violin to have a faily even feel along the length the string and find that a bit higher nut action is faster for me in the lower positions. The tension of the string kicks my finger back up. For ordinary players, I set the strings at about 1/3 to 1/2 string diameter above the fingerboard. Often the A a little higher and the E at the height of the A. Test for similar feel in first position.

If one's violin won't meet standard dimensions within a reasonable degree, then get it fixed or replaced. Unless there's a good reason. Those under 5 feet tall might have a reason for a 350 mm violin with a short scale. Those over 6 ft 2 might have a reason for a monster big violin. I don't see any reason for putting up with overly high action, low neck angle, and so on.

Steve

November 4, 2004 at 02:32 PM · Two things are being discussed here: low strings, and low bridges. They're not the same. You can have, for instance, low strings with a high bridge. In a very general way, a low bridge will facilitate articulation, but low strings will hurt it, though they'll make a violin play easier.

Most higher-level professionals prefer higher string height off the board than most amateurs, because they're stronger and they tend to play with more certainty and don't like a violin that feels mushy, however string heights that are too high, especially in the upper positions, can result in hand problems, tendonitis, etc. It's all very personal, depending on a player's style and strength, and the usual standard numbers are starting points. String heights and tonal repsonse can be manipulated independently, though--they're superficially connected, but if you're willing to throw enough money at the problem you can separate them with a neckset.

A normal bridge is about 33m high off the top at the center. I normally set strings 3.5mm and 5.5mm above the board, measured to the center of the string, never higher, but for students, sometimes 3.0mm and 5.0mm.

November 4, 2004 at 04:25 PM · I found the last two posts very interesting. So experienced violinists actually use the "spring" that a higher string gives them to "spring" their fingers back up in the lifting - in other words they work with the property instead of fighting against it. But first strong fingers are needed as well as enough flexibility and a relaxed enough hand to make this happen - the things we beginners are working toward. Suddenly the concept of only pressing the string down as far as it needs to go makes a lot of sense: sensitivity toward the string instead of aiming for the fingerboard with the string as something in the way (I wonder how many of us think that way - maybe only me). And I surmise that what might be an experienced violinist's friend, i.e. the higher string, might be the enemy of a newer player who does not yet have the sensitivity, strength and flexibility to take advantage of the string's properties and instead finds him/herself fighting them with weak fingers ... and is not even aware of them. Discovering that springy strings are something to be worked with just like springy bows is kind of neat.

November 5, 2004 at 05:00 AM · I like to feel the string slightly sprung up off the fingerboard while playing. If I were to catch myself playing with the string totally pressed into the fingerboard I would regard it as a mistake, and correct it by allowing the string to spring up a little. I feel that playing this way is liberating to the vibrato, shifting, and general facility. I tell my students to test themselves by trying to push the string down further at any moment during their playing...if they cannot push the string down even a little bit further, I regard this as an indication that the finger pressure is too great at that moment. It's helpful to consider that the violin, not being a fretted instrument, is perfectly capable of making a clear tone without squeezing the string into the fingerboard. One can try this experiment: Play with less and less finger pressure until you reach the point where the lightness of finger pressure is detrimental to the tone...Then add a drop more pressure, to restore the clear tone....This is IMHO the ideal amount to use. Notice the increased freedom and singing of the vibrato at this pressure. I believe that the special look of Heifetz's vibrato (It looks like a glove without a hand in it is doing the vibrato!!) is associated with a sensitive and minimal use of finger pressure.

November 5, 2004 at 05:56 AM · This is such a new concept for me. Thank you!

November 5, 2004 at 06:43 AM · I have nothing much to add, except to agree :) - I used to play on an EXTREMELY high bridge, which was followed by a long slew of bad bridge cuts by a luthier I trusted (nothing bad to say about his original technique though, I actually think he was just going blind). Long story short, it is the perfect example of "everything in moderation." Too low a bridge creates its own problems with string crossing and isn't fun to play. Too high a bridge and your fingers are sore 30 minutes into a concert.

November 5, 2004 at 07:17 AM · i hold the same view, shifting and vibrato become SO much easier.

November 5, 2004 at 12:45 PM · with high or low bridge?

November 5, 2004 at 03:03 PM · Daniel,

In my post above, I'm not weighing in on the subject of high or low bridge; I mean only to add into the mix of considerations the point that decisions regarding string height shouldn't be based on the supposition that strings are to be pushed firmly against the fingerboard. Add to this the important issue which Michael Darnton raised about string height and bridge height being two different things, and the matter gets a little more multi-faceted than it may appear at first. Regarding Michael Darnton's point: I recall reading, some time ago, a quote from Ricci in which he said that he liked a high bridge (for acoustical reasons), but with neck and fingerboard adjusted so the strings are not too high.

November 5, 2004 at 07:09 PM · Yes, and I think that Ricci's generalization, as a generalization, is wrong. This is one of those instances where there's a good range, and going beyond it in either direction results in bad results. Contemporary setup standards are pushing the limits of high, because of a misplaced "more (higher) is better" culture that Ricci's speaking from, but if you have an instrument that's already high, then more is less.

That 33mm figure I gave is about in the middle/high of the good range, with an average violin. I start wincing at 34mm, but 32mm is fine. This is all about tension on the instrument, mostly expressed as downward pressure. If you want to see the effect of pressure on a vibrating body, put your fingers on a speaker cone and see what happens--the problem with violins is somewhat similar.

November 5, 2004 at 09:17 PM · Greetings,

I don"t know if he isstill using it but but thirty years ago Ricci had a specially made finger board thta was raised on te g string side.

Cheers,

Buri

November 8, 2004 at 06:14 PM · The link below might help:

http://www.josephcurtinstudios.com/news/tech/journal_vsa/principles.htm

November 20, 2004 at 12:47 PM · I recognize I'm late to this discussion, but reading this I have to say my violin teacher led me in the wrong direction. I DO find that I get better articulation with reasonable string height. Now I've had the bridge lowered on my new violin (before it was "standard") and I'm not getting that. I thought I'd get used to it but I think sound and playability were better before. Ugh, probably means I need to start over again with a new bridge and listen to myself for once.

BTW - I definitely use the "spring effect" to my advantage.

November 20, 2004 at 02:42 PM · I am late to this discussion too. I play with a fairly high string height because my violin has issues with weather and the fingerboard sags in humidity.

In terms of getting more articulation from a high bridge, I'm not sure... I don't think it is a factor. The cleanliness and energy with which your fingers fall on the string and leave the string is the most important factor I think. And something to be careful with is that a bridge that is too high will require too much strenght to get the finger in the fingerboard, which can be injurious to your hand, and vibrato.

However, do keep some things in mind. Generally, there are two considerations for bridge height, string type and tension. If you play with gut or gut core strings, you will probably want a slightly higher bridge because of the lower string tension.

If you use synthetics, especially newer more recent ones, you will want to be careful not to have a bridge that is too high or too curved. First, you will find it difficult to get chords that sound united in Bach, and second, like Buri said, you can really injure your fingers. Most of the recent strings are very tense and the excess of strenght (rather than natural weight) that it takes to get them all the way into the fingerboard can really be injurious to your playing. I know, when I have tried tense strings I have often found that not only does my hand and vibrato get tense, but that it actually hurts after just one practice session. Just something to keep in mind in my opinion.

November 20, 2004 at 08:43 PM · I am a proffessional violinist/professor and luthier.Depending on the arching and thickness of the violin, the height of the bridge does change the tone. As to the response, you may find a lower brige easier for fast passages. However in the upper register it is not neccessary to push the string all the way down touching the fingerboard. In fact vibrato is easier with the freeness of the finger. Also left hand pizzicato is better with a higher bridge and nut.The more tone that you want to produce requires more pressure, more bow, more speed, and flat hair.Too low of a bridge will cause the string to buzz.In orchestral playing, quality and blending are most important, therefore a low bridge is okay. But for solo playing you need more power for projection and articulation, thus a higher bridge.If you have hand or finger pain you must lower the bridge. Good luck.

November 20, 2004 at 09:19 PM · If you are having trouble with articulation, it may be due to other issues : *Strings are buried into the bridge. *Left hand posture lacking in proper elevation and/or finger angle. *Bowing too close to the finger board. *Lacking in bow contact pressure. *Tighten the bow more for darker, mellow or muffled sounding violins. *Loosen the bow for twangy bright sounding violins. *Sound post may be too loose or too far back. *To much or not enough rosin on the bow. *Too much bow tilting or not straight enough. *Too much rosin build up on the string. *Old strings.

November 20, 2004 at 10:56 PM · Looking closer the strings are buried and I'm definitely finding that my vibrato isn't working so well on E anymore (which was lowered the most) - it seems that no resistance = no expression. I just put on a set of Obligatos - great sound but they won't work with this bridge - that's for sure. I think I was fine before...

November 21, 2004 at 04:42 AM · Please find my other comments. I must add that you should not use excessive left hand pressure because it will hinder vibrato, slow your technique down, and loose the ability to adjust your intonation. Light finger pressure with a strong bow contact is the secret. All your problems will be solved. In the summer use baby powder on the fingerboard and neck to facilitate your sensitivty and shifting.

November 21, 2004 at 10:21 AM · This last year I really perfected my technique - and I'm not having trouble getting the violin to respond in the least sense - I just notice that the setup I had before produced better results. Sorry that wasn't clear :).