ADHD student?

September 27, 2004 at 07:26 AM · "ADHD" has no clinically substantiated diagnosis, which means it is not a disease. It is a bill of goods put out by the drug companies for their own significant monetary profit. Symptoms such as you describe are usually tied to very poor diet & nutrition, and toxic buildup of chemicals in a young persons' body. This is just what the actual science says.Without the ability to guide parents to remedy these snowballing symptoms/conditions, a teacher can end up being very frustrated. People don't realize the vast amount of pesticides, chemicals, and other toxic substances that bombard us all, and how awfully they effect the smallest frog in the remotest swamp- not to mention children with direct, daily exposure.

I have young pupils who look to have severe fluoridosis due to overdoses from US bottled drinks, tap water, canned foods, toothepaste, etc ( symptoms include slow thinking process, poor memory, etc). Unless parents care to study the scientific literature, they are unaware of how they let themselves and their children be poisoned and dumbed - down.

September 27, 2004 at 10:48 AM · Hi,

I'd just like to note that whilst diagnosis of ADHD (a 'disorder', not a disease) is by its nature subjective, there are in fact established clinical diagnostic criteria in DSM-IV. You can find them here: http://www3.sympatico.ca/gdavidson/DSMADHD.htm

If there are suspicions of a condition like this, they need to be investigated. A good paediatrician should be able to confirm or rule out a diagnosis based on these guidelines. A child with a diagnosis or symptoms of ADHD, like any child, will benefit from a healthy diet free of additives. Many people with ADHD, or on the autistic spectrum (closely related), have reported huge benefits from cutting out elements such as aspartame, colourings, MSG and wheat and dairy products. In addition, omega-3 oils (found in oily fish), and specially tailored vitamin and mineral supplements can do wonders for some. However, nobody knows for sure whether environmental toxicity causes ADHD/ASD and similar conditions in the first place, so we can't take this as gospel.

It doesn't do any favours to the parents of this student just to assume that it's their fault for not feeding the child properly. Maybe if the mother also grew up with ADHD she will simply not be able to see that her child's behaviour is out of the ordinary.

I would suggest that it's up to the child herself to decide whether she wants to persevere with the violin, and if she really does, an interactive, kinetic approach to learning (doing rather than listening) may well suit her best. Many of these kids are visual learners so bright and stimulating learning material full of colourful pictures might help. Also, if she needs to run around every five minutes, build this into the lesson structure - it might be her way of letting off steam so that she can come back and focus for another 5.

These suggestions are based on my training as a music therapist and experiences as a parent of a child with autistic spectrum disorder - hope there is something helpful in here. Sorry for going on a bit.

Charlotte.

September 27, 2004 at 01:57 PM · I am an adult who successfully grew up with ADD, not ADHD. I was never given meds, and I am very thankful for that, since I am not addicted to anything. She more than likely has ADD, not ADHD, because the latter is uncommon in girls, but if she's acting out, it certainly could be ADHD. BTW, her mom may be right about the phase thing, in a way. My mom kept telling our teachers that we will get through it, and I've grown up into a professional young woman with a family, a degree, and a career in science.

Looking back, I really don't think I would have been able to learn the violin at 7. I started at 9 and didn't really get into the instrument until I was 14. You have to make the violin lessons exciting to keep her interested. I wouldn't have her work on the same music the whole time. Also try to keep scales to a minimum, they're necessary, but it's just about impossible for them to keep a ADHD kid interested in them for long. Do her parents sit in with her for the lessons? Kids have a tendency to act very differently for adults who aren't their parents. I remember the instructors I had learned from (in all things, not just violin) gained my respect, so I then listened to them. Mostly those were the ones who were strict without being mean. Maybe they were just inherently great teachers!

September 27, 2004 at 04:52 PM · These adults! Sigh. This kid will benefit alot from learning the violin. For one thing, I'd say that just because she is hyperactive doesn't necessarily mean that she was always hyperactive and always will be. Depending on the limitation of motor dexterity, any 7 year old isn't quite as coordinated as an adult.

Playing the violin is probably the best thing that can happen for her. It will help both sides of her brain to become more coordinated.

Remember Einstein was considered to be autistic or retarded and his parents were advised to institutionalize him with a projected i.q. of 80. Instead they gave him violin lessons and it helped him. Reportedly whenever he was trying to figure out a physics problem he would play the violin. (Sherlock Holmes too :) Arthur Conan Doyle apparently knew something about the brain helping capacities of the violin).

I have a friend who was adopted from overseas who is majorly LD and she has been taking violin and it really helps her. She seems to be doing quite well.

September 27, 2004 at 10:10 PM · The mom may be right. With no due respect to music teachers who engage in diagnosis of physical or of mental disorders defined in the DSM IV, or of individuals who, lacking any notion of leading-edge research in ADHD or autism (much less ANY familiarity with the actual person in question) assume a dietary cause and presumed dietary "cure" for virtually everything (which is not to say that environmental toxins and diet cannot produce conditions that mimic many symptoms of autism) -- and with all due respect to your sense of frustration in not knowing what approach to use with this child I offer the following: (1) leave the parents alone; they likely either know what is going on or are in the process of becoming open to the feedback they are getting from other sources, and (2) cherish your frustration and use it to find a way to create value for this person you are teaching; teach to the child's strengths, and assume that if you cannot see these strengths with utter clarity it is indeed your problem and opportunity. I am not suggesting that you do not have a the ability to speak to the young person who happens to be demonstrating these behaviors at this stage of his or her life. You are a music teacher. Share the music of your own life. I know you have the ability, through your teaching, to speak directly to the person behind those behaviors who is certainly no different than you or I. Good for you. I have to see each child I work with as much or more as my teacher as I am theirs. And I hope against hope that people have the humility to offer "causes" and "cures" as the personal opinion they are or the common sense to cite actual juried, peer-reviewed studies/sources (in Medline elsewhere) or spare all of us rants about issues that are, to a significant minority of us, about our own life or death or that of our loved ones. And yes, drug companies are corrupt, as are diet-supplement companies, funeral parlors, dentists, musicians, doctors, or kindergarten teachers. It's our painful task to use our own mind, heart and experience to separate the grain from the chaff, and to not deny value to ourselves or to others based on presumed corruption of a particular industry (as though negativity is inherent in corporations rather than within human life -- and can be found anywhere). And by the way, autism or ADHD can co-exist with many conditions, including those symptoms caused by environmental toxins. Oversimplification is another symptom, usually precipitated by fear and the subsequent need for a universal remedy.

September 27, 2004 at 10:07 PM · ...I have a very bright, active 9-year old son with a slight learning disability. Because he's so bright, in Grade 1 he memorized all his reading assignments, since someone read them to him in the first place, he was then able to 'read' back.

His teacher thought he could read. She had 30 years experience.

I told her he couldn't. But I'm just his mother...what do I know?

As it got tougher, he wasn't able to fake it anymore. This was seen to be defiance on his part. The harder they pressed to make him do something they thought he could do, but really couldn't, the more he started to act out.

They then called us in and suggested to us he might have ADD, and that he needed Ritalin - immediately.

This kid, if at all motivated, can sit totally focused, not moving a muscle, for hours.

Point is...he doesn't have ADD, ADHD or anything else other than a slight learning disability.

Once we fought it all out, they worked with him on his level...and it's all good now.

ADD is over-diagnosed. It could be something entirely different.

September 27, 2004 at 11:37 PM · Greetings,

getting off topic now, but I am not even very convinced by the label `lerarning diability.` It often semes to me that a better version would be `unable to learn in the standardized manner precribed by schools because we are different...`

Cheers,

Buri (who was never able to elarn a bloody thing at school. Zilch, zero period... )

September 27, 2004 at 11:44 PM · ...I like that! But the acronym is rather long...

UTLITSMPBWAD

;)

September 28, 2004 at 12:18 AM · Greetings,

no, that is the kind of thing I am quite capable of learning. It is how I spell `Christmas Tree.`

Cheers,

Buri

September 28, 2004 at 12:21 AM · AMEN, Alan. To a person who is experiencing a disease or "disorder" it can be terribly upsetting to have it downplayed by someone who doesn't have the same experiences. It is actually quite impossible for some people to believe and understand things that they don't have within the realm of their own head and body, so they equate it, understandibly, with what they know and HAVE experienced. I have accepted this as the way it is. Genuine empathy. But sometimes hurtful. It comes down to a kind of faith. What you can't see really does exist-type-faith. Sometimes all we see are behaviours and that is what we choose to believe. We see the toxins and environmental horrors and we equate. But some things are very real and very hard to pinpoint...and when they are finally diagnosed and treated, the person can begin to see the world closer to the way the rest of people do. Why is it that with cancer or diabeties, people are ready to accept the illness even though they may not have personally felt the pain or sickness of it, but when it comes to the brain, there must all of a sudden be so many other factors that rule out sickness? I have never comprehended that mentality. Yes, too many children are prescribed ritalin when it is not needed. But that shouldn't mean that the ones who would benefit from it should endure a harder life than necessary because their problems are not taken as truths.

JW

September 28, 2004 at 12:30 AM · As for the original post, Sue, I would just say...I have had several students who don't improve on the violin. It seemed like no matter what approach I took, they didn't ever get better. I used to beat myself up over it. But then I realized something. They loved coming to their violin lessons. Even when I was hard on them. I have no way of knowing if they really truly practiced at home or not...just had to take their word on it, and sometimes they indeed had not practiced. The point I realized was this. These children sometimes had terrible experiences at school the day of their lessons. Or perhaps had stressful lives. Or were happy go lucky children having great days..whatever. But when they walked into my office, it was violin time. It was music time. It was something different, somewhere that they had all of my undevided attention for thirty minutes. They were important. They were given little gifts of learning which were part of somthing bigger and wonderful, and that they understood. The joy and beauty and love of music. Maybe someday they will be better violinists. Maybe not. But when they grow up, they will hopefully appreciate music. And as for that particular day, they got all of me that I could give them for their allotted time. And to a kid, that can be pretty special. Just give this child that, and the rest doesn't matter.

JW

September 28, 2004 at 12:32 AM · Would you believe I'm not actually concerned with labelling this child's disorder, if indeed she has one. I'm more interested in ways of tackling lessons with her, given the problems I've described. At the moment she is blossoming in theory lessons, but violin is going precisely nowhere. Our repertoire is currently very limited because the motor skills problem means we have yet to make it off open strings (she cannot draw a straight bow, stay on one string or avoid the bridge/fingerboard; there is very little physical control). Her best work is pizzicato, however - as I've mentioned - she has barely any sense of rhythm, so that too puts limits on what can be accomplished.

September 28, 2004 at 01:43 AM · Greetings,

I think I would in some senses reverse the normal teaching procedures. There are x number of goals you as a teahcer know a studnet needs to attain but the kid is not heading that way.... what does he/she like? Animal stories, pictures? Can she just tyr and make differnet kinds of noises inresponse to stories? Can she tell stories and you make the noises?

How does an elephant play the violin? Make the body movementsd more central tan the instrument.

How can what she likes to do and how can that be fitted into the lesson?

Cheers,

Buri the sloth

September 28, 2004 at 01:40 AM · Nick, why we all take the violin in our hands??? ^^

Sue, I know this kind of students. Recently one girl quit my class. Something in my teaching way was wrong... Probably, she needed more activities, even more problems to solve. Anyway... what I found:

1)those kind of students act better without presence of their parents in class;

2)they have different behavior in front of different people; so, sometimes they are more quite and try to do their best when their father(not mother, especially babysitter) present in class;

3)during class, the only one problem can be solved successfully;

4)differnt games,like "focus attention", "freese", "you are a teacher" can help organize these students;

5)group class-that's what they need.

Unfortunately, to be honest, I don't believe in their progress...

September 28, 2004 at 02:34 AM · My 15 year-old daughter was recently diagnosed with ADHD-Inattentive Type. It's a fancy way of saying "dreamy girl". We knew she had significant focus problems, but didn't pursue a diagnosis until she was unhappy with school, her grades were going down and she was increasingly frustrated. Her violin suffered from her lack of focus, and sometimes I'm sorry we waited so long to get her some help (she takes the new non-stimulant medication, and it helps!) She's now working on creating a new set of habitual behaviors, and has a LOT less stress in her life. She has the potential to be a very good violinist, but right now she's concentrating on getting her life organized and enjoying some free time once in a while (Unfocused homeowork takes all available time - focused homework goes sooooo much quicker!) I truly hope that before long she will get back to her music in a big way, but in the meantime she is so much happier that I can't complain!

Her violin teacher has found that she has to repeat things a lot for her, and get her attention. She "drifts", and nothing sticks. I've started getting her to run around the house or up and down the stairs when she starts spacing out, and she says it helps. It's an adventure...

Karin

September 28, 2004 at 05:44 PM · Greetings,

When I was still teaching I took a summer course in learning disabilities which was too late to help a former student who was put on ritalin and resembled a drugged up but attentive zomby with slurred speech. I have also tutored kids with "learning disabilities". I'd like to throw out some ideas and you can choose which might suit.

- In teacher's college we were taught to stimulate and to entertain. Apparently one source of that "stimulus" idea comes from the Sesame Street experiment, which was done with understimulated children in very poor environments with parents unable to provide proper care or be available: the kids sat around possibly in front of the television set with little interaction. The "stimulus" idea worked very well. Unfortunately the same kind of loud, boisterous, entertaining kind of stimulus can be overwhelming to a finely tuned oversensitive individual who absorbs all in one shot. That kind of "hype" can create an over excitability even in "normal" children.

- For ADD kids we were told about classes with a totally understimulating environment. Teachers were to wear muted colours, no jewellery. Books were to have no distracting pictures, and even the desks should have no wood grain patterns on them. I don't know if I agree with this.

- A young man who has outgrown his difficulties learned recently that those with ADD actually feel understimulated. That turned my world a bit on its head. However, when I look at the type of chosen "stimulus" it tends to be rhythmic, repetitive types of music, body motions etc. Of course there's a lot of repetitive motion in violin playing. Recently I walked into a classroom where a young student was playing a perfect 2 octave scale, his body wonderfully still, but the right foot swinging like a pendulum in rhythm to the scale.

- A lot of "ld" kids (way too broad a label, and I would prefer 'alternat learners') seem to have problems sequencing: they are not linear thinkers. Another way to say this is that they absorb everything in one shot - they're too fast and too bright for their own good, especially in this linear world. We were told about someone with reading problems. He also had trouble buttoning his coat (sequencing), counting out change (sequencing), and following a shopping list (sequencing) yet was highly intelligent.

- In the workshop we were given an interesting excercise to learn what some kinds of learning disabilities felt like. Our partners held a text up to a mirror, and we were to write down what the reflected words said. It was incredibly frustrating, and when the instruction followed to cajole the writer into doing better, I wanted to give my teacher-partner a good slap. And yes, I was feeling quite hyperactive! ;-)

- focussed stimulus? I.e. not bright colours or their equivalent all over the room, but the attention drawn to the item in question?

- Direct rather than indirect teaching. We are told to always bring things into context and teach around the subject. If I am to teach the pythagorean theorum I am first supposed to talk about Egypt and pyramids because pyramids are interesting and are shaped like triangles. It's a kind of social game that most kids figure out and they tune out the Egypt lesson and wait for the theorum to come along. A lot of the "ld" kids are very literal: "Jack frost paints the forest red." is exactly that, and they're still wondering about the pyramids when the hypotenuse comes along. I discussed this once with an obviously very intelligent sales clerk in a hardware store who could not go on to higher education because of a "learning disability". I gave an impromptu "lesson" the pyramid-hypotenuse way, and a straightforward way, on the uses of masking tape. When I began the "official school" style, brandishing my role of masking tape and asking, "Put up your hand if you have ever wrapped Christmas presents?" he groaned, "That's exactly what it was like. It gives me nightmares!"

- There was a scan (ultrasound?) done somewhere of people learning tasks and later on performing those tasks after learning them. When the task was still being learned, the entire brain lit up. Once it was learned, only a small portion of the brain showed activity. Learning new things should be exhausting. If it's exhausting, less time can be spent on it before the mind begins to wander. This makes me think of doing one focussed task (no multitasking) for a period of time that your student seems comfortable, and then going on to another one. Would this work?

- Of course if a person is exceptionally bright and is in an underchallenging classroom environment, the mind will also wander.

- In the academic world we teach primarily to the senses of sight and hearing. Some people are visual learners (pictures, written words) and others are audial learners (spoken word, aural demonstration). But still others learn kinetically (tactile) nd I suppose one could teach through smell and taste though I haven't yet figured out how. It would be interesting to figure out what your student's primary sense is. In any case, the violin is a tactile instrument.

- I've encountered a few "ld" kids who created their own learning devices. Since they learn in an alternate style, that seems to make sense. One created a series of loops and dots to help him spell words which looked remarkably like a phonetic approach used by one system for teaching French.

- Can you catch what seems to work and expand on it? Is there a common element to those times when he is learning well and/or is less fidgety?

If there is even one useful item in my ramblings I'd be happy.

A sobering anecdote. The school in which I taught had a "family groupings" day in which we were to teach from lesson kits designed for self esteem or self concept. Childrens wandered from classroom to classroom grouped as much in the form of brothers, sisters, cousins of all ages. My "unit" involved creating a silhouette of yourself from a shadow cast by a strong lamp, tracing it, cutting it out from black paper, and it was supposed to teach that "I am special". One of my group had kids from kindergarten on, and included a boy about 12 years old from the "LD section". He joked around, did silly wobbly things when tracing his silhouette, and a kindergarten child helped him cut out his silhouette. I found out that when the group waited outside the next classroom door which had a glass window, he put his fist through the glass. I'm told he was articulate, bright, well read and well informed but had some problem around the area of following shapes (as when writing down words). I can only imagine how humiliating it must have been to be unable to carry out the task that the 5 year olds were able to do. And as a teacher, I should have been informed ahead of time.

September 28, 2004 at 07:08 PM · Maxi, you opened my eyes on many things I've never knew before. Thank you! But... did you notice even small amount, or elements of progress from these children? I mean learning the violin.

September 28, 2004 at 08:46 PM · A student will make progress if the teacher believes they can. If the teacher doesn't believe in them, how can they progress? They didn't think Helen Keller could learn anything. It took a special teacher to find the way to reach her and teach her.

September 28, 2004 at 10:03 PM · Hi Rita,

I was worried that none of what I wrote applied. If you found any of it informative or useful I am glad. My teaching experience involves academic suhjects in the classroom and one-on-one so I don't know how it, or if any of it, applies to the violin. But just in case it does I thought I would throw out what I have learned. It seems to me that the so-called "learning disabled" thrive more in creative, open-ended environments that allow their unique thought processes emerge. At the same time many will have already been damaged by the false notion that there is something wrong with them and that they cannot learn. The defence mechanism might already be there by the time you get such a child under your wings.

Oh, another story I had almost forgotten. In some vague way (perhaps someone can tell me how) it may fit with violin teaching. I tutored a grade 8 "learning disabled" girl who had to go on to high school because she was too old to stay in the public school LD program. She came to me with reading and writing difficulties. I used the British version of the Dick and Jane books, I think they're Jane and Peter. The books are very logically presented, one element at a time, perfect for what I described before. I took her back until she could read comfortably, which was I think "book 3". She began having trouble with sentences having conjunctions because she was trying to read it all at once. My guess is that she had had to rush through the sentences in school and got into that habit. We turned the sentences into separate phrases: kind of like doing one bar at a time in music. Later she had trouble again once direct speech was introduced, and again for the same reason. I taught her "instinctively", i.e. without any preset 'teaching technique' but responding to what was presenting itself in front of me. At this point I sensed that she was in a muddle by all of the stuff going on at the same time in the sentence and she was trying to do it all at once. We read the story through three times. The first time she did the "narrator". If it was, " 'I want to eat some ice cream' Jane said to Peter." then she would read "Jane said to Peter" and I read "I want to eat some ice cream" in a high squeaky "Jane-voice". The next time we reversed roles, and I found she created a voice for Jane. Instead of trying to process all the information at once, she was in effect putting it into manageable chunks and slowing down. I think we even worked on tempo - If I had owned a metronome, we might even have used one! The third time she would read the story as narrator and character, and was encouraged to give the character a unique voice. Her homework was to read that way, in all three stages, at home. Two weeks later she fairly skipped her way upstairs and told me with surprise in her voice that she had been able to read along with the class at the appropriate reading level. She didn't need to be taught vocabulary or grammar: only HOW to APPROACH reading! The sad thing is that her mother was dissatisfied with the playful non-serious way of teaching and wanted me to force her daughter into some heavy and boring grammar exercises. I was unwilling to damage her wonderful progress and we parted ways.

I did not think about this event again until I had my own violin lessons and found that I was trying to play everything at once in all its elements. The analogy with this student was all too strong, and I adjusted myself accordingly.

September 28, 2004 at 09:59 PM · Hi ,

some very thought provoking material here...thankyou .

The most sailent point about teachers is that it is what they dont say that the student takes away with him,short and longterm.

To think even remotely linearly is rather like being able to sustain a torsion ,albeit unnoticed ,or unmentioned .

..The social function of the elements being learned are the only contexturalizers that have made sense to me.

thanks again

Mark N

September 28, 2004 at 10:23 PM · As a dyslexic with mild ADD (I'm not going to admit how long it takes me to read and respond to the messages on this forum!!!) I have found reading this discussion to be very enlightening--you know, getting a feel for how people on "the other side" view the issue. Being as so much has already been said I'll stick to the original question and answer in the form of an example.

This past summer I worked with a very ADHD 10 year old boy while his teacher (a friend of mine) was away. Of course it's different for different students, but I found the most successful method was to simply go with him on his little "mental journeys." We ended up doing a lot of learning that wasn't directly related to the actual playing of the instrument, but by filling his head with all of this other info his interest to work was much higher. One Sample "tangent": I asked if he could hear the difference between two notes and he turned around in a circle three times and told me his grandfather couldn't hear any more. Following his lead, I asked "there was a composer that lost his hearing, do you know who it was?" This led to a discussion of Beethoven and how he went about composing after he lost his hearing. He even tried plugging his ears and watching me play to name non-aural things that helped him know what I was playing (fingerings, bowings, rhythms, articulations...). When we did get back to the music between the many tangents he would bring all of these ideas back to his playing. Yes, it was unorthodox, but it worked very well in his case and he enjoyed it immensely (I felt pretty bad when his teacher came home and he didn't want to go back to studying with her--but after we talked it through he did). His parents told me he was spending hours a day with his violin or listening to music. Maybe the "follow the student" method might be worth a shot. Personally, I know it NEVER would have worked for me when I was his age, but for some students...

'Erie :-)

P.S. Is it possible the acting out could be a front to cover the discomfort or embarrasment about the student's lack of physical motor control problems? Yet another theory from someone who isn't a doctor... (-:

September 29, 2004 at 08:59 PM · Hi everyone,

Well, what a discussion this has turned into! Loads of great feedback and ideas - big thanks to all. Erie, about the tangent approach you've just suggested: this is the way I've been going so far with my student, and her mother clearly likes this too - we talk about lots of different things in lessons, and when it comes to theory there seem to be no limits - I remember the child taking a meagre few seconds to figure out the logistics of a time signature with a 64 on the bottom (although of course I mentioned that she's unlikely to ever see one...).

Anyway, I have something of a newsflash after our latest lesson together. Following the discussion on this thread, I tried a more 'alternative', interactive approach that was far less about the development of good violin technique.

Instead of the usual tune-up at the piano, based on 'sharp/flat/same?' we played rhythm games with E, A, D and G: she'd compose a little rhythm on the relevant piano key; I'd pizz it back. We swapped instruments back and forth. Onto the violin side of things: an open string duet, which is something we often do - it's maintaining a steady tempo that can be problematic for her. So we went back to the metronome, which we've toyed with in the past. Her attention began to wander, and she started fooling around with an ad hoc left hand technique - which actually wasn't bad for a newcomer. So I offered to teach her how to play harmonics if we could finish our duet: focus regained. Back to the metronome: 'Listen, it sounds just like a clock! Can you make your violin sound like a clock?' Cue pizzicato 'ticking'. We played the duet; she kept time pretty well, like a clock.

Harmonics: with the motor skills problem, I didn't expect her to have the necessary sensitivity or dexterity, but she managed to find the octave harmonic on all strings. She made a whistling noise. 'Listen, now I sound like a train!' 'Good stuff, shall I try making train noises too?' We squealed away. I asked her to make the violin laugh (of course this involved lots of laughing, for comparison). I showed her a fancy laugh (rapidly descending chromatic), which she enjoyed. She replied with a lower guffaw. She then experimented with scrubbing away on lower strings, and I pointed out that she sounded like a train again... so we put the chugging and the whistling together (Orange Blossom Special, here we come). Homework: to find as many violin sound effects as she can and make a list of what/how.

There endeth the umpteenth lesson.

September 29, 2004 at 02:30 AM · ...LOL...I'm glad it went so well!...

...and I want to hear you do that laugh! :)

September 29, 2004 at 07:55 PM · Sounds like a great lesson. Pulitzer prize for brilliant teaching. :-)

October 2, 2004 at 02:48 PM · Aw, thanks Nick:)

October 2, 2004 at 10:56 PM · sue, i'm interested that you mention the movement diffiuclties/cooridnation diffiuclties for this student. when teaching any motor skills with kids like this, I've found that startinf by increasing awareness of where the bits are and where they are moving really helps. the brain knows about our limbs by stimulation of joint and muscle receptors, sometimes we need to really get those receptors firing. 'heavy work' works - lifting, pushing, pulling. the bonus of heavy work is that it also feeds into the cerebellum to provide a state of calm alertness in which some learning can happen.

1. think of quick heavy work acitivies like 'wheelbarrow'ing from the dorr to the practice area 9you know, where you hold her legs up and she walks on her arms) or pushig away the wall a few times, things like that can be done intermittently thorugh the lesson.

2. also, giving extra visual and tactile cues as to what the arms or fingers are doing - maybe a weighted cuff on the bow arm, or laurie's idea (was it laurie) of putting a little bean bag toy on the elbow. maybe a bit of extra weight over the shoulders for part of the lesson. the fingers on the left hand could benefit from a little blue tack on the nails (tactile), bright stickers (visual). something like that cold also cue how you want the bow hand to be positioned.

4. aim for little things in each lesson - bow straight, 1st finger position - and think up ways of letting her measure how this is going, give her a goal for the week -so that she KNOS she has improved.

5. aim for the just right challenge - achievable but not already achieved.

I agree with the thinking on this topic that learning something like the violin will be benficial, it just won't ahppen as easily as it would for a focussed little prodigy, but you'll really get a kick out of facilitating learning and fun for this little girl.

Hope this helps.

October 3, 2004 at 03:44 AM · I think Thomas has it right. But I think part of the real diagnosis is found right here...

"Her mother supervises lessons and MAKES NO EFFORT TO CURB HER CHILD'S BEHAVIOR".

Probably just like at home...

Preston

October 3, 2004 at 07:59 PM · Preston, it's exactly what I thought about. All children's progress depends on the only environment they live in. That's what Dr. Suzuki always said.

October 4, 2004 at 08:31 PM · I must confess there was a time when I wondered if the student was faking it, either for my benefit or possibly as a full-time pursuit... but although her father is a little tougher, he also maintains that the student's behaviour during lessons is typical.

October 5, 2004 at 07:23 AM · Dr Suzuki may have felt that all children's behaviour is the result of their environment, and heaven knows my dear mother said the same thing. Doesn't mean either one of them was right... Don't we all have or know of siblings who respond totally differently to challenge, structure, constraint, praise. Sure, a parent's strategies will have some impact, but there wouldn't be a nature/nuture debate if behaviour were only mono-modal.

The issue is not whether this child's possible disorder or her parent's parenting style is difficult to teach violin to. It's that THIS CHILD is difficult to teach violin to. So look at the problem that presents and work on that, just in your little sphere of infuence. Even a kid with scattered environmental structure the rest of the time, or with a firm diagnosis of ADHD will learn to respond to consistency, praise, reward, and respect. Maybe your lesson with her is the only place she's gonna get it.

Sharelle. (Ranting a little, so apologising in advance for any offense).

October 6, 2004 at 02:13 AM · I second Sharelle.

Also, a teacher can give so much to a kid who is missing something at home.

October 22, 2004 at 12:04 AM · I am a beginning adult student, so I don't have any insight in terms of violin playing or teaching. I am however a family therapist and in the process of completing my dissertation for my doctorate in clinical and neuropsychology. My dissertation topic is ADD-ADHD. It seems to me that if you have the patience, working with and ADD/ADHD person would actually help their symptoms and neurodevelopment. The structure of learning the violin coupled with the aural-emotional-physical process that is involved would actually encourage neural development in a way that would support increased attention and concentration. From a purely neuropsychological (not musical) standpoint, the relationship with the student would be extrememly important. Additionally having the student learn through varried sources of sensory input would be valuable as well. Often people have a perferred way of learning and engaging with their environment, and finding and utilizing this perferred mode would additionally be productive. My viewpoint is that there are different neurological, psychological and relational reasons why peole have trouble paying attention and that taking an individualized approach based on the relationahip with the person is that way to go.

Peter Lynch

October 22, 2004 at 05:46 AM · Peter - What you say is fascinating, both as the parent of an ADD kid violinist, and as an adult student of the violin. My first teacher got me to start by citing a study that showed how learning something new at midlife can help keep Alzheimers away. Now you say that my daughter could be learning to "work around" her ADD by studying violin. It's a magical instrument!!!

November 30, 2004 at 10:00 PM · It really is not up to you to decide if the child has ADHD or whatever. However, if the child will not behave in a lesson, it is time to tell the parent that either the child listens to the instruction and takes it seriously or they are not worth your time to teach and no longer will be a student. This way, the parent will have to do their job. Otherwise, if you do not want to loose the business, then if the parents want to waste the money on a child that gets nothing from a lesson then just be fine with that.

December 2, 2004 at 07:35 PM · My two-cents... (what does that buy, anymore, anyways?)

Maxi hits the nail on the head with the idea of changing approaches and taking-in what is presented rather than what is rationalized away from the reality of the situation. A little more common sense and much less psychologizing (sic) goes a long way in the real world.

We should remember that in modern society we all tend to “project ourselves” into the world, rather than receive into ourselves what the world is revealing to us. Like a novice artist that cannot draw a realistic representation of a chair in front of them as they are too preoccupied with drawing what they think a chair is, it is far too easy and tempting to incorrectly draw the child, person, student, etc. immediately in front of us by resorting to some very vague notions and labels based solely upon an academic discipline that is, frankly, a temporal aberration. I think Marx got it wrong, religion is not the opiate of the masses, today it is psychology. How quickly we run to it to explain what we don’t understand nor really want to face about the world and prefer to try to put into a neat little box, when in reality the truth is right before us, often in the form of an innocent child.

We don’t see because we never really look. We don’t hear because we never really listen.

December 2, 2004 at 11:46 PM · Greetings,

Andrew you are right about the distortion of reality humans have imposed on themselves but why blame psychology in general. There are inummerbale barnches, many of which accept precisly the position you spell out (Rodgers, Frankl and so on).

The base of the problem is rooted, as far asI can see, in humankinds dislocation of self . That cannot be attributed to a fiedl of study which may, or may not, be considering the problem.

Cheers from the prune can,

Buri

December 4, 2004 at 12:47 AM · Buri, although it sounds as though it is a rather far reaching and narrow minded thing to denounce an entire discipline, I can say that this sentiment is shared by quite a few in the scientific community and others in academic life. I'd go on a limb to say that the very fact that it is seen as a "discipline" tends to usher the acceptance of much of the bad science that comes from it. It really does not matter if a few in this area of study seem to be more astute or empirical, if the very nature of the discipline is flawed and the very same nature promotes bad science.

December 4, 2004 at 01:50 AM · What a collection of diverse viewpoints! To respond to the original post, and to emphasize a point made by others, exercise tends to improve attention, often dramatically. Exercise affects neurotransmitters that regulate attention. If possible, try asking parents if they will let an inattentive student jog (or the equivalent) for 20 minutes or so immediately before the lesson. If that is not possible, you might try to incorporate exercise into the lesson--some kind of energetic bouncing up and down that leaves the child slightly out of breath, then see if the next few minutes of the lesson improve. If the child loves the bouncing too much to stop, well, go with it and teach musical bouncing. Hope this helps!