Sarasate and Wieniawski
I was wondering if someone could tell me what the relationship between these two violinists was. I assume they were friends, i think they were born 9 (?) years apart, i know the wieniawski concerto 2 is dedicated to sarasate.
Replies (28)
couldn't you give me the cliff notes version?
:)
I've been doing some homework on Sarasate lately, but other than the concerto you mentioned, the only connection I could find on the two was that they were both students of Massart at some point. So was Kreisler, by the way.
Owen: since you're a Bay Area resident, you should check out one of Joseph Gold's letctures (when he gets back from touring) as, I believe he is a scholar of Sarasate.
Mattias: I too would be very interested to hear what you have to say on the subject (however long or short!).
Where to start?
Wieniawski studied in Paris 1843-46, first under Clavel and from the second year under Massart.
He got the first prix 1946, still 12 years old!
He left Paris for the East and returned and stayed 1849-1850 for composition studies (Under Colet). So he left Paris again at 15.
Sarasate went to Paris in 1856 the firs time, at 12.
And no, he didn't study under Massart but under Alard.
About 1861 Sarasate left Paris.
So they did not meet during their studies... :-)
Parte deux...
Between 1851-1853 Wieniawski stayed in Russia with his brother (during that time he wrote his first concerto) and toured Europe between 1853-60 before setteling in Russia (he didn't leave untill 1872). During that period he wrote his second concerto (1862) that is dedicated to Sarasate (the last movment is Allegro moderato a la Zingara).
So when can they have met?
Theory one...
After 1856 and before 1861 in Paris during Wieniawski's tours, Sarasate was still a student (he left Paris at 17).
Theory two...
The score was not published until 1870 and the published score bears the dedication.
It makes more sence to me if the dedication was given after the premiere Weieniawski toured Paris several times (among other dates 1867). Sarasate toured a lot him to.
I have no idea.
I don't even know if they ever met. They had mutial friends in Bruch and many others, so the dedication could be based on hearsay.
I don't have a Sarasate biography, does any one else know if they met?
this is interesting, i wonder if he would have dedicated the score if they never met? if you consider that they were probabely the two of hte most famous violinists in europe at the time, along with joachim, it seems possible. He probabely saw the music to some of sarasates pieces as well.
I am not sure if they met in Paris but I know they met in St,Petersburg when Sarasate toured Russia. There werent enough tickets to Sarasate's concert so in addition they arraged for Sarasate to perform during intermissions at the Opera. One evening there was a get together at a noblemans palace which both Sarasate and Wieniawsky attended. Sarasate was asked to play something so he sent for his Stradivarius which was at the hotel. After playing a few pieces, Wienawsky was asked to play also, so he did, on Sarasate's violin which was offered to him. Wieniawsky was living in St Petersbirg at that time.
Thank you!
That was interesting!
That would be theory two then.
What talks for theory one is that Saint-Saens second concerto was written for Sarasate in 1859, Sarasate was 15 years old and student in Paris, already famous...
wasn't 3 also written for sarasate, and the rondo cappriccsioso too? and the havanise? i know saint-saens heard him play and was in awe.
Yepp, but that was much later than Wieniawski's second.
My friend Marty has a vintage disk where Pablo Sarasate plays the unaccompanied Prelude to the J. S. Bach 3rd Partita. He takes it at breakneck speed and about two thirds of the way through he looses it and plays an improvised measure or two. The rendition is smooth as silk and if you don't know the movement you wouln't know anything out of the ordinary happened.
Ted
i have that too.
Hey all,
Sorry to drag up an old thread, but I just spoke with Joseph Gold (website under the same name) and learned that Sarasate and Wieniawski did meet and were friends, but at the moment that is all I can tell you.
He made reference to Auer's biography (possible source?)...
Mr. Gold will be out of town for a while, but when he gets back I'll have more for you (if you're still interested).
very interested, thanks a lot.
They were definitly friends in some ways, the title page of Wieniawski's 2'nd concerto says "à son Ami Pablo de Sarasate" and other sources confirm this to.
Nut I wonder when did they first establish this frienship?
And about the Saint-Sains second concerto, both were student at the Paris Conservatoire at the same time and the concerto is a work from one student to an other.
Well, I've already stuck my foot in my mouth once on this particular thread (re: Massart).
I was on the phone with him and he was on his way out the door and it was a bad line...I wonder if the bio he was refering to was that of Alard not Auer...Like I said, bad phone line.
Let's see...
Wieniawski died at 44(?)...
Okay, I'm not making sense at this point, my head hurts, I'm trying to restudy Bang Etudes while I wait for my customer's kernel to recompile and it's cold down here...
I'll get the full report in the next week or 2 and pass it on...
Owen: As I mentioned before, Joseph Gold lectures in the Bay Area, so you might check one of those out...I think I'm on the mailing list, so I could let you know next time I hear of one?
Oh, he also performs here allot and he's very open to conversation after most shows:
http://hometown.aol.com/herterbrothers/englanderindex.html
It's a great setting for chamber music as well!
...Okay back to that stupid server...
[trudges off to IT oblivion]
hmm, that note on the wieniawski 2 was what got me started on this. It seemed impossible that the two best violinists of that time wouldn't meet. they were a bit older than joachim correct?
Younger, actually...
Joseph Joachim (1831 – 1907)
Henryk Wieniawski (1835-1880)
Pablo de Sarasate (1844-1908)
Looks like Sarasate was the young 'un of the group.
Did I get that right Mattias?
For the record, I know even less about Joachim than I do about the other two...
In my opinion, Wieniawski was the best Polish violinist to live, and Sarasate was the best Spanish violinist. They both were masters at composing showpieces.
Okay Owen, here's what I got:
It was Auer's biography that Mr. Gold was refering to; He said there is a section in which Mr. Auer talks about Wieneowski and Sarasate.
I did a search on Amazon and the book is out of print and listed as not available, however, I did find this (warning: it uses Java...) which shows the biography ('My long life in music') is at both the Sonoma County Library and the SF Public Library among others in the Bay Area.
I really hate bothering him on the phone, so he suggested we meet in August for further discussion. Woohoo!
I'll get back to you then!
Actually, not just the wieniawski no. 2 was dedicated to sarasate, but also some of wieniawskis unpublished works, his Caprice de Concert was and his Danse Espangole op ???. They were never published. Wieniawski turned out to be a little less well known as a performer than sarasate, but both had their audience on their feet!
Think how would have been be in the Beethoven Society of London to listen to a concerto by this string quartet: Wieniawsky, Ernst, Joachim and Piatti!!
Yeah, with Wieniawski on Alto!
Joachom once said that the one that had not heard Wieniawski "get loose" on his viola knew nothing about string-technique!
But Carlos - I don't think that you would appreciate it since it was live ;)
I wonder though between the two who was "better" im thinking SARASATE!
Why do you say so Alex?
well to tell u truthfully, both were obviously great but wieniaski had an unconventional way of holding the bow. I guess one can say it was slightly pronated giving way i guess to an unconventional spicatto and sautille and many right hand techniques. He was mainly famed for his left hand technique, for he had a very intense vibrato and good way of running up and down scales. In short, Sarasate was everything with wieniawskis left hand technique, and he had a fluid right hand. Sarasates tone, is just incredible. I have his Ziguenerweisen recording, and i dont know if youll know where im talking about, but before the fast part, theres sort of a climax, where it should show the violinists musicality, and sarasate just plays it so brilliantly. I also like his compostions more than Wieawskis because there easier for the audience to relate to, elaborate, virtuosic and have a vibe of spanish. wieniawski is greasst nontheless, just i like sarasate better.
i was more referring to their personal relationship than antyhing.
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March 25, 2004 at 09:22 AM · That is a very wide question, and since I don't like to read or write long posts, I will only help If you are more specific :-)
But it is a interesting question Owen!