Holding Up the Violin
I'm interested to hear people's views on how best to 'hold up' your violin to reduce tension. What percentage of head weight to use as opposed to holding the violin up with the left arm/hand if you know what I mean!!?? I understand that during shifts, you need to use head weight to make it easier for the left hand to become free, but in general playing, should you just simply 'balance' the violin on your shoulder using your left hand to stablize the violin at the other end, or should you use head weight as well? When I use the 'balancing' method, my violin doesn't feel very stable.
Thanks.
Replies (25)
Hello,
Holding the violin is one of the most important aspects of violin technique. I personally hold it by clamping it between my left jaw and left shoulder/collar bone. One needs a good and fitted chinrest and a good shoulder rest.
The idea is to have the left hand free at all times. It does no good to have it free only when shifting, at least in my playing. Easy shifting, playing fast passages, accomplishing intricate double stops and chords are a few of the benefits of holding the violin this way. Not to say that applying any other technique does not work, but this is what I found works best for me and my students.
Good luck.
i'm not sure "clamping" is the best way to think about that, your word choice makes me cringe already.
"Head weight on the violin already means "tension " whatever the percentage."
i dont think thats necessarily true, first of all, you have to have a certain amount of weight on the violin. Second of all, if the head is merely relaxed and resting on the chin rest, i dont see why there would have to be any tension at all, the weight of the head is more than enough to hold hte violin in place. I do also think that some of the weight will at time be held up by the left hand.
Greetings,
there are two parts to this problem that I meander about on.
First, ther is no reason why head dropping to make the violin secure on downward shifts should cause tension- unless the incoorect vertabrae and musclesa are being used. Since QAlexander work (yawn ;)) has shown that almost everybody in first world countries (?) has misuse of the body then this is something that needs to be dealt with, and not necessarily by a violin teacher... As Alain pointed out, much of the answe r lies in the chin rest.
The second point is challenging what we mean by `holding up` the instrument with the left hand. Is the left hand actually physically doing anything? The left hand is conncetec to the left arm, so the priorit6y is getting the left arm to float freely , then there is the should and all this connectsts with the big muscles on the back and the spine and posture. ... if all this is woring well then the violin is simply resting on the base of the index finger. Everything jut floats up. Try playing without a rest at the level the instrument is usually held with a shoulder rest and you can be in trouble.
It is worth noting that some players use the collar bone bone, some use the shoulder more (Heifetz) and others use rests so you just have to find your own way.
However, I have found thta a perceived lack of stability when not using a rest has a lot more to do with the way the body is being used than genuine instability. The problem is simply that if one begins with a rest one learns to play a certain way (not saying right or wrong, many of the greatest players in the world use rests, most in fact...) and if one begins without then the journey is a little more complex and may reuqire er..better teaching about balance and posture in the early stages. Rosand , for example, argues that unless one begins at the age of five, learning to play without a rest is extremely difficult to impossible.
Me, I was never more relieved in my life, but I don`t have to play major concertos at the drop of a hat,
Cheers,
Buri
Not to directly agree or disagree with any of the points made so far, I believe this is one of our favourite circular debates again - we're never going to arrive at a right or wrong answer because there isn't one. First rate teachers I know who specifically claim to support each other's technical approaches disagree on this topic, so what hope do the rest of us have?
Greetings,
yep,
if Nancy goes through the archives she will find enough open ended material on this to keep her reading until her retirment.
Notice how flexible I am Sue...Must be the prunes
Cheers,
Buri
I find that without a shoulder rest my violin is much more stable if I have it fairly well up on the collarbone, ie a lot of the base of the violin on the bone (and muscle behind). That's very stable. For this, I must have a fairly central chinrest. Photos I've seen of Mutter I think show a central chinrest, probably for the same reason.
When I try to hold my violin further forward on the collarbone, with a left chinrest, it all becomes unstable and my left hand and head weight have to work far too hard to hold it in place.
With the violin solidly on the collarbone, as long as I stand up straight it just sits there, even with my head completely off the chinrest and the left hand only gently holding the vln neck. I only need to stablise it with head weight for downward shifts, strong vibrato (esp arm) and vigorous playing.
I agree with Susan ,according to place on the collar bone the Vln might be stable or instable. A tip to find the right place and direction is ,while the Vln choked between chin and collar bone,you must be able to touch your left ear with left hand without tension near the elbow then touch your right ear still with your left hand over and under the vln.
>Notice how flexible I am Sue...Must be the prunes
No, it's not the prunes, you prune, it's the Alexander Tech...... Flexibility of mind 'n all that....As for the nightmare that is the interminable circular (but fascinating) debate on chinrests/shoulder rests.........good luck..........I'm off...... (Aaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrggggggghhhhhhhhh!!!!!!) off...........
As a luthier with 28 years experience dealing with violinist's problems in this area, I have found almost universal success with a Teka style chinrest and a *modified* Wolf Secondo shoulder rest. The Teka (and most recently the Wittner brand of synthetic rest) extends *the cup* over the tailpiece, unlike the Guarneri which clamps over the block but the cup is still off to the side. This naturally places the instrument higher on the shoulder. The key to success is molding (bending) the Secondo rest to fit the shoulder, thus locking the instrument in place using primarily the weight of the scroll, if that makes any sense. The leg lengths are then adjusted to achieve the proper tilt of the violin and fill the available space between the chin and the shoulder. Finally, the placement of the rest on the back of the violin is *critical*. It must be kept low toward the tail block to insure that the scroll doesn't shoot up in the air. Additionally the rotational position determines the direction the scroll points; ie: if, looking at the back of the instrument, the left leg is high and the right leg is low, the scroll will point more in front of the player. If the reverse is true, the scroll will point more off the shoulder side of the player. Here's the way to remember: think of the rest as always sitting on the shoulder in the ONLY place that it actually fits, then rotate the violin on it to the desired direction.
Sorry for the long post, but a simple recommendation of chinrest and shoulder pad would be of no value.
Dan Lawrence
http://www.danlawrenceviolins.com
Hi, my teacher has taught me to play the violin always considering a flowing of both the right and left hand. Every transition must be smooth and rounded. Therefore, playing the violin is a balance. This includes balancing the violin's weight with your head and your left hand (keeping in mind that you should be able to vibrate freely even with the violin supported by the left hand). This also includes when you need more thumb pressure vs. less thumb pressure, when to use arm weight and when you don't. This is the natural balance feeling which I think we all strive for. Something which should happen unconsciously, which "keeps the flow".
A word of advice: I obsessed about the left hand at one point, thinking about when to use arm weight, when to hold it up with the left hand, how much thumb pressure you can use and where and when, etc. Pretty much, I would say to just keep your playing well-rounded and smooth. Find the balance between all these things. Remember, violin playing cannot really be described as a set of rules. It is about the natural feeling, which we all must discover for ourselves.
Hope this helps,
Chris
the simplest answer is use a shoulder rest
the correct answer is dont use a shoulder rest
My philosophy: beginners should start with a shoulder rest to develop independent strong left hand skills, and later make up their own minds about shoulder rests.
If you start without one you're going to support the fiddle with the left hand and play very flat all the time and have pains throughout your body. It's not worth it.
If you feel, as I do, that you have fairly solid left hand technique and don't "need" the shoulder rest, then experiment without one and see what happens. It's good to experiment with your instrument...as I'm finding. :)
k
In indian music style we play violin by sitting on the ground . The violin is held downwards resting on leftside of chest keeping the other end on the right leg's palm side. Thus the left hand is free to move up & down for easyness. And the music directly flows down from heart !!
Krishnamohan
Essentially, there isn't a 'right' way of holding the violin in this respect.
As long as you produce tone, and can manage technical passages with the posture you hold, without damaging your body in the near future or long run.
You'll be fine.
If you have a long neck (like I do) a shoulder rest is nessary, unless you want to place 4 inches of cork to raise the chinrest into place....
Your BOTH shoulders shoud be Absolutely relaxed. If one of your shoulder is tense than another will be tense in a moment.
There should be only two points of holding the violin - first one is your shoulder (where the violin lays) and another one is your left hand. Your head should not have any effect on your holding, it just hels sometimes - in high positions.
It is true very important to hold your violin correctly!
Greetings,
ah, the shoudler rest debate rears its ugly head again. The topic in which the most charming, brilliant and talented among this list metamorphasize into snarling, intransigent , prune juice frothing hydraphobes, ripping at each others' guts and then spitting prune stones on the still twitching corpses.
So here is my 1 cents worth again...
Dan, Iam in your camp, on your side, with the program, on the team. Shoulder rests should be burned.
But er, I am still unable to explain the following:
1) The majority of great players and top orchestral players of today use rests and however much I live in the past and don"t buy their cds Iam not willing to deny their ability and talent.
2) A lot of great teachers (incliding Galamian and Delay, Bron ) could not care less one way or another. The criteria was /is tension.
3) The arch advocate of no rest (and one of my favorite violinsts) Aaron Rosand often states that unless you start young you ca never really master playing without a rest.
4) You have a -very- great player and pedagogue as a teacher.
On the other hand. Kismet,
I coach a orchestra of kids who are crippled by the teachers insistence that young students need to use the (Kun) rest. Their heads are twisted, their shoulders screwed, thier hands wrecked. Ironically, the same teacher comes to me for help (she is fifty five and in serious pain althoug she plays professionally) and the one thing she refuses to do is take off the rest and try a variety of pad or foam supports so I can begin restoring shoulder mobility.
The youngsters I have taught from the beginning have not suffered because of not using a rest. It is a question of how you do it.
On the other hand Sue has written about her experiences where children have got into real difficulties that have been resolved magically by using a rest.
Nor do I deny the validity or truth of what you describe in any way whatsoever.
The essence of the probelm is that what we are all talking aboutis our own personal experience which is as radically different as one would expect from something as elusive and sexy as the violin.
Sadly, these experiences, though contributing to an important picture and well worth studying, do not form an adequate evidence base for making -factual- statements about whetehr or not using a shoulder rest is okay,
(Except mine of course!!!!!)
Love and kisses,
Buri
Nice point made buri.
I did some measurements with the help of my brother today, we'd both need between 1 or 2 inchs of extra cork board to raise the chin rest into a comfortable position to play without a shoulder rest.
Would you recommend acutally doing that? Or use the shoulder rest that we are doing so with now?
About using the shoulder rest, I feel that too many of us start the violin learning to clamp it with a potentially lethal tendancy, when the tool is ment to do the oposite.
I have found the rest to be ever bit as comfortable to play with,as to play without. When it is placed as far away from the end pin as possible. This means moving the legs of the shoulder rest towards the bridge and acutally supporting the instrument at the shoulder.
I have come to find that in this position, it helps keep my shoulder relaxed while i accend the fingerboard.
Greetings,
Sum, I have seen some really high chin rests but I think it is better to buildup the top part rather than a thick wad of cork. After a certain depth the cork is just going to dampen the isntrument.
part of the problem isthat it is not simply a question of 'filing in the space' which is so often used as an argument for the rets. Thebasic point is true but the questiuon of what kind of space is more complictaed. Is the sdpace actually created by leaning the head back and elongatng the throat for example? So often, people convince themselves they hae a long neck, jam in a huge rest which forces things back and they deal with te insecurity created by cranking it p even further. It is sometiems better to go the other way and actually try for the smallest possible amount of support that youcan get by on.
I suspect you lose some shoulder mobility by having the rest so far away but I am not sure. Perhaps a rest user can comment on this. I don"t think I have seen this so often actually.
Cheers,
Buri
am a self-learning beginner who like to experiment things. Puzzled by strong opions against using a shoulder-rest. Isn't it a similar situation to the chin-rest? What exactly composes a violin? Without a (chine/shoulder)rest, would the sound of a violin be dampened?
det
i notice loss of mobility with big shoulder rests, but a smallish one thta rests on the collar bone doesn't seem to decrease mobility at all, i think its just easier to learn to clamp the violin with the shoulder rest there as opposed to without it. If you learn to be mobile and loose with a small shoulder rest i dont see anything wrong with it, my teacher is hte looesest most mobile player i've ever seen and he uses a shoulder rest.
hello- I played for nearly 18 years with a shoulder rest. I won some minor competitions and thought I was great.
Then I turned 21 and started to experience slight discomfort during practicing. I sought the advice of Neil Weintrob(now my teacher) he advocates not using a shoulder rest because it almost alwaysleads to the head clamping down on the chinrest.
His idea made sense to me so I switched. It took meabout 6 months to completly adjust my technique. The violin is now balanced between chin and collarbone, and the left hand holds up the neck.
I find that my playing is more in tune because I feel the vibrations with my body and my playing is cleaner because I have a good"hold" on the violin.
With a shoulder rest I had a false sense of security ie. I could play difficult music but not always "perfect" For example I played Paganini Concerto nr1 for one of my juries. In rehearsal it went fine ,but for the performance i died Iwas over shifting and under shifting terribly. Now I can play this piece accurately because I am not rely on the shoulder rest.
Besides if you read "The Way They Play" all of the violinists advocate not using a shoulder rest-garry
Greetings,
Garry, I am so glad someone made the conversion successfully at a late stage.
Minor quibble, but it is not actually correct to say that all the violnists in The Way They Play, do without. Many of them use rests, and many of them say it is a question of choice.
Players like Mullova do not comment but are using rests.
What really bugged me was Applbaum`s claim that top profesisonals don`t use rests. But when you look at photos of him in book 2 he has a massive pad strapped to the back of his violin. If that isn`t muting the sound by a huge amount I will eat a prune can.
Also, in some oif the earlier discussion on this list some pupils of Heifetz and Milstein pointe dout that they were both `shirt stuffers,` Kreisler had a trick with the lapel of his Jacket and Oistrakh became very enamoured of shoulder rests later in life. In fact, in his way they play interview he says that he has become enamoured of the Polonius model, I think. Sorry I last read that book 20 years ago,
Cheers,
Buri
I had used shoulder rest for 13 years since I started learning violin. But later I switched. However, I went through longer adjusting time, more than a year. Now I’ve got less tense left shoulder/arm, and what makes me happy about it is that I FEEL better tone production. Maybe a listener next doesn’t feel the difference. With your collarbone touching the backboard of the vln, I, like what Garry mentioned “feel the vibration with my body.” Physiosonically (I wonder if there is such a word), chest resonance is an important channel to feel sound, besides ear.
I have the same feeling as Susan, a central chin rest gives more stability. The Teka style chin rest Dan Lawrence talked about offers more stability for me.
However, I found myself applying more head weight when using strong vibrato. This somewhat muffles the sound volume and its transmitting effect. I wonder if you guys noticed that. In the book “Violin Playing as I Teach it”, Auer mentioned that as much as 1/3 of the sound volume can get lost if the violin is not held right.
Your comments and advices much appreciated -- Bruce
I have the same problem with vibrato... am I doing something wrong? I can get away with playing w/o a shoulder rest, but when using vibrato the instrument tends to shake too much. if I 'clamp' it more, then I can get a good vibrato
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March 24, 2004 at 01:27 PM · Head weight on the violin already means "tension " whatever the percentage.In my opinion ,the best is to have cupule shaped chin rest so a slight rotation of the head will tighten your fiddle on the collar bone thanks to the mandible.Sliding up needs to gently scroll up your violin so its weight rests on the angle formed by the collar bone your your neck. You just need to add a little pression on the chin rest to slide back. Remember ,your head must be free most of the time.