Spiccato, Sautille and Bow Holding

January 25, 2004 at 03:30 AM · William,

I think if your bow hold is incorrect (as it sounds with ur thumb not being bent and all the other stuff) you should re-evaluate your bow hold completely before you start to fix the spicatto, if u've got the wrong bow hold u don't want to learn how to do spicatto with this incorrect bow hold. It is of the utmost importance that your bow hold is correct and then the spicatto and sautille may be properly learnt.... (crawl before u walk is relevant to this situation).

Maybe this definiton of spiccato will help you:

Spiccato is a bouncing stroke, using the elasticity of the bow-stroke, the bow hair and the string, which enables the bow to leave the string between each stroke. this is played usually in the middle of the bow and in the lower half when louder and slower.

Spicatto uses a wrist action that is for sure... don't try tensing up ur arm and wrist to get it, everything must be relaxed and the wrist and fingers on the bow should make the bow bounce consistently.

So what's my point? Well fix up your bow hold and then learn the proper spicatto method. Hope that helped...

Adam

January 25, 2004 at 04:10 AM · True about correcting bow hold before spiccato. It is spiccato that actually made me realise I have problems with my bow hold.

I have observed bow holding of many violinists on video and came to realise that because I have huge nuckles (used to do martial arts), it prevents me from bending my thumb comfortably. Both my teacher and I are figuring out the best bow hold for me at the moment because of those "disfigured" fingers...

My exam is coming up in a few months and I can't stop everything just to figure out the correct bow hold. So I guess I will have to practice everything along with it for now.

January 25, 2004 at 05:31 AM · ack!

spicatto and sautille don't sound or look the same. sautille is an extension of the detache stroke and is executed in the middle of the bow, on your bow's "bouncy point" where you don't have to try to get an off the string sound, but get it when doing a rapid detache stroke. (ie Monti's Csardas)

spicatto is when the bow is bounced/thrown at the bottom of the bow, totally different from the detache stroke. spicatto is typically used when you have slower off the string passages.

and a good bow hold is important!

ok it's really late so maybe i'll give you more hints later.

January 25, 2004 at 08:43 AM · Well, I think u could fix up ur bow hold quite quickly if you practiced at least and hour a day (maybe 2) on your bow hold. Of course you have to pracitce for your exam but try to fix up the bow hold as quickly as possible. Anyway what grade are u sitting?

January 25, 2004 at 12:52 PM · Thumb opposite to third finger create a tension in the whole hand that explains your bowing problems. Your index finger placement on the bow partly depends on the way your hold your violin .For instance if your vln is almost horizontal with the scroll turned to the left ,the upper part of the third phalanx (near the hand)should touch the wand

It might be useful to consider the octogonal shape of the bow with a pinky pressing the upper inner slanted part and an index finger counteracting on the lower outer slanted part ,centered by the ring formed by thumb and second finger bothe resting on the lower slanted part hope this image might help you

January 26, 2004 at 02:13 AM · Tommy, the balance point of the bow (the bouncy point) is not in the middle, but towards the frog.

January 26, 2004 at 02:58 AM · sue-

of course it's not in the exact middle or tip, but not at the frog as i think our misinformed topic starter thinks. also, it's different for each bow. but yeah, you're right it's in the lower half

January 26, 2004 at 03:10 AM · Greetings,

as has already bee pointed out, the bow hold has to be sorted first. It would help you a lot to have a copy of @`basics` to study, I think. Getting harder and harder to get.

I do feel you shoudl work on massaging your fingers to try to restore flexibility as far as is possible. Gentle manipulation of the joints with the other hand.

The exercies I have found most useful for changing bow holds involve playign one note for a specified period (IE half a bow for one or two secomnds) then stopping for tens econds or similar and checking everything , then repeat with a new note and so on.

You should neverr `lock` anything as you play but you might have noticed in anotehr recent thread that there is not complete agreement about how much arm/fingers is involved in spiccato.

As a general rule for e, the slower thwe stroke the more arm you use. This corresponds to the general tecnical rule that the faster you are going the smaller the joint you use. Sort of, the `rule of the pendelum.`

Hoever, flexible fingers and a good bow hold are pre requisites for bowings such as spiccatto.

Don`t get discouraged though. Truly even bow stroks are a life`s work and even some professionals have a mediocre spiccatto.

Cheers,

Buri

January 26, 2004 at 06:57 AM · As Buri has said 'flexible fingers' are of the utmost importance and if you are hooking with your index finger I should imagine there is a problem with your bowing in general.Find a relaxed hand position by lightly shaking your hand and letting it come to rest.The natural fall of the fingers replicates the bow hold.You will notice that your thumb comes to rest between the index and second finger and the fingers are gently curved.Turn your hand to the left and you will arrive at the corrct angle.Gently make bowing movements and you should observe that hand and fingers move together.Lead with your wrist.From here on you can invent your own excercises by flexing fingers etc.When you have understood this process put a cardboard tube on your left shoulder (finished toilet paper roll will do)and insert your bow.Try repeating these excercises holding the bow.

To find the correct part of the bow for spiccato you have to find the balance point of your bow.Balance the bow on your index finger.It is usually about 2/3rds up the lower half.

January 26, 2004 at 05:04 PM · Thank you all for the advice.

Since we are on the subject of bow hold, I read that there are different types of bow holding and wonder if there is a dominant bow holding out of these types and why? Any reasons why I should not try other bow holding to find which one would suit my "abnormal" hand?

January 26, 2004 at 06:16 PM · Sounds like you do need more finger flexibility. I recommend the following to adult or tense students. Soak your fingers in warm water before playing and try it a few other times throughout the day, then loosely curl the fingers in your palm and extend them as straight as possible, several times. Not fast at first, just to feel the capability of your fingers and hand in terms of movement. Flexibility can improve. I also agree that massaging them with the other hand will be valuable to you. And if your right hand is "abnormal", then perhaps your left is as well. (which poses other problems) try the same thing with that hand. If your fingers become flexible enough, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to hold the bow more w/ your pinky, thumb and ring (and middle) fingers...and be more in control of your index finger. (Instead of letting "it" control your bowing.)You will find off the string bowstrokes and springing bows easier with flexible fingers. The very idea of "locking" anything is a scary concept, always seek to lessen tension...it crushes tone and it hurts. :)

January 26, 2004 at 11:57 PM · Greetings,

William, from a sort of historical perspective there have been/are three main bow holds: German, Russian and Franco Belgian.

The German hold was vry close to the fingertips and used a low elbow. Nobody really uses it any more.

Flesh defined the pros and cons of both in his book and suggested thqt the future of bowing was rather dependent on which on came to predominate. The former has the stick high up the index finger which gives eellent leverage and therfore power at the point. The Franco Belgian has the bow between the first and second joints from the tip and balances the weigtha rocc the hand more. It is much easier to play at the heel with this hold and there is a -failry- widespread agreement that it is more flexible so the Russian is somwaht out of fashion. Flesch initially taught the Russian but eventually decided on the FB which is what Szeryng and Oistrakh used. Inicdentally, the pure FB has very tight bow hair.

These days there is perhaps less attention paid to these distinctions and hybrids tend to emerge on a case by case basis. It was easy to pick out Galamian students who combined elements of all these styles and had/have a high forefinger.

Perhaps one of the reasons a pure Russian style is not so common these days is that it does actually have to be taught by someone who knows what they are doing. It is not so simple as just slding the bow down the index finger.

To my mind, the rational position is to have a set of priciples that allow each individual hand to fucntion aswell as it may. Such principles may be found in `Basics` or even on the back pf prune can lables,

Cheers,

Buri

January 27, 2004 at 04:00 AM · I’m 70 years old and I studied with an old Russian teacher who studied with Leopold Auer in St. Petersburg. My teacher told me that Auer looked at a violinists arm and told many of his students that the long armed violinists profited from holding the bow in the Franco – Belgian style. Auer also told my teacher (a relatively short man of 5’7”) that in most cases (when bowing towards the tip of the bow) the stick should gradually gravitate into a location almost underneath the right hand knuckle. During this movement towards the tip of the bow, the thumb also slowly gets straighter but is still very limp. At the tip some of Auer’s short students only had contact with the bow grip using only the thumb and first three fingers (the right hand actually looked like a limp lettuce leaf). At that point you could easily bow past the tip. My teacher had a very powerful sound with great bow contact and volume (flat hair and close to the bridge). Auer explained that the Index finger pushed down, while the thumb acted as a bottom support, and the other fingers just rested gently on the bow grip. Auer also told the shorter violinists to look at Toscha Seidel for some hints as to how he produced his unique sound. Other violinists have often asked me to show them what I do to produce such volume.

April 24, 2004 at 08:29 PM · Tommy Atkinson (via 68.66.27.5) on January 24, 2004 at 10:31 PM (MST)writes:

"spicatto is when the bow is bounced/thrown at the bottom of the bow, totally different from the detache stroke. spicatto is typically used when you have slower off the string passages."

True, but is there not a "spiccato alla corda" which is something like a slow sautille (i.e. the stick bounces but the hair stays on the string)? Is it not also useful to prepare the study of spiccato by deriving it from a short detache at the heel and allowing the stick to bounce off? Fischer (Basics) prescribes such an exercise of bounce control.

April 25, 2004 at 10:43 PM · There are many discussions on the proper way to hold the bow. Your grip seems to be close to the so called "Russian School" which includes Heifetz, Elman, Milstein (other Auer pupils) and probably including David Oistrakh. So, your not in too bad company huh. I also hold the bow with the so called "Russian Grip". The bow is held deep in my hand which gives me more control, and my index finger curls around the stick. My thumb is curved and opposite the third finger. The fourth finger rests lightly on the bow for balance. As far as using the bow, you have to think of the bow as an extension of the hand. I know that they call your right hand the bow arm, but really the fingers and the wrist do most of the work when it comes to bowing. Your right arm adds weight (controlled by the wrist of the right hand) and extends from the elbow to allow you to use the entire length of the bow. Never use your arm to start a bow stroke. It will throw the bow out of focus by involving the shoulder joint which is never used in bowing, and also it will be very difficult for you to make the bow go straight (parallel to the bridge). Now for spiccato or Sautille. I suggest that you lean against a wall with your elbow so that your arm can not move. Use only the wrist and the fingers to make the bow move. Find the point in the bow where it will bounce on its own. (Every bow is a little different) The motion should feel something like your erasing with a pencil. See if that helps you. By the way, its okay to lift your fourth finger from the bow when doing spiccato and sautille, it will probably be easier if you do.

April 25, 2004 at 11:51 PM · Greetings,

I think I am going top offer a different take on Spiccato. The basic rule of bowing which Gerle calls the Pendelum, is the faster the stroke the smaller the join/body unit used. So the degree to which you use fingers, wrist , arm or whole arm in Spicatto is entirely a factor of speed. thus there are a variety of Spicattos. For example, the opening of Beethoven five would be played using the whole arm in what Applebaum calls a `dramtic spicatto,` but the string entires after that would be played with a very little movement in the lower arm and below. The sound is firrent. To play spicatto only one way is perhaps ratehr one dimensional cheers,

Buri

April 26, 2004 at 01:07 AM · Seidel did have a huge sound to me!. Or it could be the recording I have.

April 27, 2004 at 01:18 AM · Greetings.

I have a question on where the tip of thumb touches the bow.

I observed that Heifetz’s thumb was on the frog (within the curve of the frog), while, to the other extreme, some one like Mutter, seems holding the bow away from the frog. My thumb is half on the frog and half on the stick. I tried either way. The bow feels lighter when holding away from the frog, but seems I lost some control. When holding on the frog my pinky has to press down harder for some bowing at the bottom.

Can anyone comment on this? Thanks.

April 27, 2004 at 03:12 AM · Greetings,

the thumb rests between the thumb leather and the fog, touching both,

Cheers,

Buri

April 27, 2004 at 06:36 PM · in general i agree with buri about the thumb, also about joint size/speed, i was going to add that i occasionally move my grip up the stick a little bit for certain baroque pieces (bach g minor presto, orchestral things like handel), this is sort of a personal thing.