Vivaldi's A minor quick question

May 7, 2017 at 02:08 AM · Sorry, despite a baroque keener, forgot that sharps/flats only affect written notes! This is what happens when you take too long of a playing break...

Baroque composers made lovely use of dissonance as a form if melodic shape, though it become less common until 20th century "music". :)

May 7, 2017 at 04:44 AM · While noting fingerings my teacher also added natural signs for those notes.

May 7, 2017 at 07:31 AM · At the time, most composers wrote repeated accidentals within a measure, to maintain or cancel them . So as Vivaldi has not done so, we have to rely on scolarship and/or intuition!

In this particular example I prefer to keep the sharps on the way down, otherwise it sounds like scale book..

On the other hand, editors like Nachez & Co were a little too keen to "improve" Vivaldi's manuscripts.

May 7, 2017 at 07:48 AM · I did play it with naturals, but it is a passage where it is not as clear as usual. If I remember correctly, no other instrument is playing harmonics that suggest either the one or the other solution. I suggest melodic scale.

It might be a simple a major part though...

May 7, 2017 at 11:47 AM · Anne B, is that right?

In the baroque era, a natural, sharp or flat signo only affected the immediately next note and NOT the rest of the notes in that bar?

Do you agree with her (or the book), you guys?

If so then it's no doubt it has naturals there. By the way if you listen to Perlman's performance, he plays the naturals, and that may probably means that even Galamian taught it that way.

May 7, 2017 at 12:10 PM · I've always played it with repeated sharps, but I just listened to Elizabeth Wallfisch's recording, and I think I'm going to change my ways.

May 7, 2017 at 12:28 PM · Hmm. Interesting question. Perlman played this? What was he, maybe 9 months old then?

May 7, 2017 at 12:37 PM · When I first looked at the Vivaldi Amin in Suzuki Book 4 some years ago, I thought to myself that surely can't be as Vivaldi wrote it (I later discovered it had been edited by Nachez). I discussed it with my teacher and we agreed to look out an urtext online and learn from that. Much more educational.

May 7, 2017 at 02:07 PM · No, Paul, my Gowd, we're talking about Perlman here, for Jesus sake, he recorded this when he was like 5-6 days old.

Now seriously, he recorded this with Israel Philarmonic Orchestra in 1985.

Thank you for the compliment Anne, that motivated me today, hahaha. It happened the other day, I was learning this and when I got to that passage, I just couldn't understand it with the descending sharps there, and I immediately thought of the melodic scale and it was the first question I asked to my teacher.

Oh, by the way, check it out:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B012YL80OA/ref=pd_aw_sim_sbs_15_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=H524ZD23MPA9GWBG9DPR&dpPl=1&dpID=91olUMA9DDL

May 7, 2017 at 02:47 PM · I see natural signs in the first set of green notes, second version. Is that just me?

BTW, Perlman has an album called Concertos from my Childhood that includes Vivaldi A minor, Rieding B minor, Scene de Ballet, and other student pieces.

May 7, 2017 at 02:47 PM · I see natural signs in the first set of green notes, second version. Is that just me?

BTW, Perlman has an album called Concertos from my Childhood that includes Vivaldi A minor, Rieding B minor, Scene de Ballet, and other student pieces.

May 7, 2017 at 02:56 PM · Yeah, my teacher wrote them down few days ago when I talked about this with her.

May 7, 2017 at 05:04 PM · This has been a really thought provoking discussion!

Look at the Amsterdam first edition parts (they are all up on IMSLP) of any Vivaldi concertos, and you would see accidentals affect only the immediate note. It's quite consistent, as Anne pointed out.

Some please correct me if I am mistaken! To the best of my knowledge the "melodic minor" scale with raised 6th and 7th scale degree going up and lowered going down is just a scale book convention...there was never a strict rule that said you have to lowered them descending in compositions.

But in this case, if we read the passage following the typical Baroque convention of accidentals not carrying through out the bar, the music tells us to play them as naturals. If Vivaldi wanted them to have sharps, he (or his engravers) would had been obliged to insert sharps for the descending notes as well.

I love Perlman and I think it's great to respect teachers, but more useful to the discussion is to know their reasoning why they chose to play a certain way. What if, for sake of argument, Heifetz played it the other way — Perlman reveres Heifetz, so does that mean Heifetz's choice trumps Perlman? It's great to consult great artists and early music experts, but better to come to your own conclusion with knowledge, don't you think?

May 7, 2017 at 06:59 PM · Yeah, I like to FIRST choose my own way of playing it, after some time thinking about it, and once I dominate it, I review other interpretations and think if there are some passages or things that make more sense than what I do, and if they do and convince me, then I change those things.

Nevertheless, in this case, hahaha, I've listened to Perlman's performance many times before working myself on this piece. Anyway, I don't think that's what made me think they were natural, I just was learning that part and as soon as I played that descending G and F with sharps, I immediately saw again the score to double-check if they were natural. To my surprise, they weren't, and I kind of was sure it was an error.

I've played it some hours ago, and if you take it from a few bars ago and arrive to those notes, the melody screams for natural G and F, that's what I think. I even don't like them sharp, it sound weird.

May 7, 2017 at 10:24 PM · Oh, by the way, I've just found that there are bars with sharps and flats that affect the whole bar, so I guess you have to "sense" when this special rule of only one note affected applies.