Naturally Slow Trill?

March 30, 2016 at 04:59 PM · Thanks, but what if you actually cannot trill very quickly due to physical make-up?

Do you try to make yourself go faster by flexing the hand towards you like Heifetz etc, or do you just live with it? :)

March 30, 2016 at 05:09 PM · The reason half of the Kreutzer etudes are full of trills, and the reason they come fairly early in the book, is because this is something hard to do, and it's a leading indicator of overall facility.

Maybe I need to look this up in "Basics" or something but I am not sure that anyone can really teach you how to trill faster.

March 30, 2016 at 06:28 PM · I start with mordents, then double, triple mordents etc.

And the least tension possible compatible with clarity.

March 30, 2016 at 07:13 PM · What Adrian describes is actually the subject of at least one entire Kreutzer trill study, but obviously it's applicable to any repertoire piece containing trill ornaments, and it's a good idea.

Something I learned from my teacher is how to "support" a trill with the bow. Anytime the string has to start vibrating with a new stop, there is a small amount of inertia that has to be overcome, and that happens several times during a trill (a few times during a mordent). You can start learning the passage without the mordent, but play the trilled note as an accent. Then when you put in the trill you'll find the "accent" bow motion helps clarify your trill sand it won't necessarily sound as "accented" any more. Of course it's possible to overdo it, but in time you learn the right balance. A good example of where this approach is very effective is the mordent passage in middle of the Veracini Gigue at the end of the Suzuki Book 5.

March 30, 2016 at 07:36 PM · A.O. that's a pretty far reach. I'm not sure if you did a study of violinist muscle compositions, whether you would find any correlation to their ability to play. Besides, training in specific ways can change the makeup of fast-twitch and slow-twitch muscles in the body. Someone could do a powerlifting routine if they want to get faster, and someone that is training for marathons is going to get slower-twitch muscle.

Train for the activity you are trying to do. Trill studies with a relaxed hand, focusing on getting your fingers up quickly without tensing.

March 30, 2016 at 08:54 PM · Thanks all for replies, will check out Sevcik and Kreutzer. :)

PS: I don't use an SR, and sometimes play so loosely that I almost drop the violin, so... pretty sure its not a tension issue! :D

Also, my hand setup is fine, thanks! :)

March 31, 2016 at 11:03 AM · I had the same problem a couple years ago and didn't possess those 'fast twitch' muscles to make trills pop. For me I just had to build them, and it took close to a year of daily trill studies, scales, finger exercises, etc before everything started to kick in and the physiology of my hand began to change. This was after 8 years of violin study.

I think some people develop it early on or are born with it, and some people just need to work harder for it. But the great thing is that after you get your hand to a certain level of fluidity and build up those muscles they never really go away--even after a year break you could get everything back within a week if you had built up those muscles.

I'm not sure what level your playing is at but a good way to develop trills is to practice the Kreutzer trill preparatory exercises as you would Sevcik studies. I found the Sevcik trill studies didn't do much for my trills.

March 31, 2016 at 11:20 AM · I have the same response as most people here: A.O., do not try to hide behind your supposedly physical impossibilities, but work on your weakness every day with concentration, like everything else on the violin. improvement will be automagic.

March 31, 2016 at 11:27 AM · Also, to Jenny:

I agree that a good controlled trill can't be done without proper left hand set up, but that doesn't mean that lack of a good trill automatically implies bad left hand set up. I'd even venture to say it might be a bit irresponsible to tell someone their set up is 'wrong' if they can't do something technically, without even seeing or hearing them. Sometimes it's just a matter of developing the necessary muscles to implement the motions. Not everyone naturally has these muscles, and I think it gets harder the older a person gets to develop them, which makes issues like this one more prevalent among late starters.

April 1, 2016 at 12:01 AM · @Jenny: I have sorted out my hand position etc, which was related to getting used to no SR. See my earlier post where I mentioned that I almost drop the violin because of relaxation! :D

My fingers will simply not do the trill movement quickly enough.

On to Kreutzer it is!

April 1, 2016 at 03:40 AM · Eh... Okay.

My point was that I'm not tense. :)

So, Sevcik for developing the twitch needed for a trill, right (as opposed to the actual movement)?

April 1, 2016 at 07:12 AM · The twitch as in the start of the trill, the impulse that allows you to start off the trill at full speed and clarity for short durations. Like the descending trills in the first movement of Mozart 4 as opposed to quarter note trills in which you have time to build up.

Based on my experience using it, I'd say the Sevcik trill studies don't emphasize the twitch much if at all, but rather just the stamina and control to sustain a trill. A much more efficient way to develop a trill would be to practice the preparatory exercises for Kreutzer 15 (it's in the Galamian version, not sure about other versions) in the style of Sevcik, ie quarter into 8ths, 16th, 32nds and gradually turning up the metronome. The two share similarities but the Kreutzer exercises subtly differs in that it help develop a lightness and impulse that the Sevcik ones lack in my opinion in favor of brute force repetition. This method combines the best in Sevcik--the stamina and control--with the dexterity needed to utilize trills in normal literature.

April 1, 2016 at 03:36 PM · I'm no trill master, but the feeling in my hand should be about the same whether the finger is moving for a trill or for normal fingering in passagework. It's possible to execute brilliant trills from a cramped hand, and tensing up, but at the cost of the tension you just introduced. I think of trilling as an extension of the practice I do on the first page of Schradieck, where I go for a strong articulation with the minimal tension achievable, coming from finding the limits of how lightly I can press my fingers and still get the sound I want.

April 2, 2016 at 09:51 AM · I find it helpful to replace the "down-up-down-up-down-up" idea with a "down-down-down" one: a tapping, rather than pumping motion. And as the trilling finger hasn't enough time to squash its pad, it is necessary to aim a fraction sharper than for a sustained note.

For stocky students, I suggest strong slow practice, lightening as they speed up; for the willowy ones, I suggest slow, willowy practice, adding tonus rather than strength as we speed up.

April 2, 2016 at 05:59 PM · According to Louis Kievman (Practicing the Violin Mentally and Physically), the focus should be on the lifting the finger off the sting part. The finger should then drop down by gravity, not muscle effort. Similarly, with vibrato, you only focus on moving the wrist (or hand, or finger, or arm) in one direction, and then let it naturally come back to its original position. The muscle effort should only go one way in a quick back and forth motion like trill and vibrato

April 2, 2016 at 06:34 PM · An excellent trill exercise is the following:

1.play 4 groups of two notes: double dotted 8th followed by a 32 second note, starting on the lower note of the trill. This activates the lifting action of the finger.

2.Then do the same starting on the upper note of the trill. This keeps the trilling finger close to the string.

3. Then combine the 2 motions by playing in a triplet rhythm: double dotted 8th, 32nd, 8th starting on the lower note; then the same starting on the upper note.

4. repeat #3 several times

5. then trill starting on the lower note, and then trill starting on the upper note.

This exercise helps to develop rhythm and speed which are essential for a good trill.

April 3, 2016 at 01:34 AM · Thanks, will try it! :)

April 3, 2016 at 09:27 AM · Any special advice for the little finger ? My trills using that are hopeless.

April 4, 2016 at 12:58 AM · Pinky likely just needs to be stronger overall. Studies. Schradieck Vol. 1, No. 1. Corelli Allegro in Suzuki Book 7.