The Major Scale in Fourths

December 2, 2015 at 04:34 PM · Dave,

One of my former improv teachers is a trombonist from the Eastman School of Music jazz program and is currently a performing trombonist doing tours. He encouraged me to practice 3rds and 4ths in rising and falling 'scales' and in rising and falling 'broken' patterns. He demonstrated these staying strictly with the pattern and just changing the rhythms to make them swing, while playing some jazz tunes that we were working on. I agree with you, it sounds very interesting.

I get the impression from him that this is a capability that jazz horn players from top schools routinely learn and use. However, its still one of those things that 'I will get to someday.' Thanks for reminding me.

December 3, 2015 at 01:29 AM · Hi Mike...long time! I also swing them for blues, and I also stay strictly within the patterns for the notes of whatever Major scale I'm in. Lydian seems to like different phrasings than swing. heck, I haven't even tried the fourths over Phrygian yet, but I bet the edgy sound of the fourths should go great over that dark minor mode. My playing has been too linear for years, so I'm adding these to my Maj7 and Minor7b5 (locrian) arps. These can also be played over any mode, as these arps contain some of the notes included in the modal major scale,(but no notes that are not in the major scale) but each contains some different notes. I've written reference charts to match the arp keys with the required mode.

Thanks for the reply, good to hear from you.

December 5, 2015 at 05:07 AM · well, I didn't anticipate a whole lot of interest in a modal Improv thread, but before it falls off the end of the page, as per my above post, I wanted to report that I tried the fourths over 'A' Phrigian (Fmaj scale), and they did sound every bit as good as over Lydian...Tres Cool.

Other stuff for 'A' Phrygian would be the following arps: Bbmaj7, Fmaj7 & Emin7b5. the min7b5 (Locrian) arps are my favorite, such a fascinating sound.

I've been at this modal stuff for several years now, and I think I've found my niche, I just like the way it all works. It can get a bit lonely here in mode land for violin, but I find there are quite a few lead guitar players who understand me.

December 5, 2015 at 07:45 AM · You say the fourths sound good played over this chord and that mode...What I don't understand is...why don't the fourths sound good over any chord or any scale/mode...the fourths are just a broken scale, played in patterns. And the mode is just derived from the major scale....?

December 5, 2015 at 11:05 AM · 3rd's project a different feeling than fouths. Fourths have more tension than 3rd's. 3rds can sound rather bland over some modes. Fourths have too much tension for some modes. and when I say 'modes' you can also say 'the different chords that the modes are played against. Same with arpeggios. In my last post I stated that both a BbMaj7 arp and an Fmaj7 arp can be played against 'A' Phrygian. As I've explained before, both these arps have notes that are contained in the F Maj scale, but they both have some different notes contained in the Fmaj scale. therefore they project a slightly different feeling over 'A' Phrygian. and the difference between the Emin7b5 arps is much more pronounced than both the Maj7 arps. Does Classical music sound different than Rock 'n Roll?

If you like, I can say that it is "just my opinion that this sounds better than that, or that sounds better than this". Perhaps you should read or re-read Mike Laird's post above. He says something about 3rd's & 4ths. It is only logical to think that both 3rd's & 4th's would sound different over different modes....because the modes sound different. But let me repeat, it is just my opinion on what sounds better or different. If you think that the fourths would "sound good over any chord or any scale/mode" that's fine by me.... go for it.

PS to V.com members. If I sound a bit curt in my post, Henry and I have waltzed around this subject before on an other site.

December 5, 2015 at 11:09 PM · Here is is introduction to Major scale in Fourths from the book Patterns for Jazz.

Fourth intervals have become extremely popular among improvisers, in recent years, both because the interval interests them and because fourths tend to break away from the sound and rigid function of thirds heard in the ordinary ruminations on chords built in thirds. Successive perfect fourth intervals will be discussed later, as they apply to free form improvisation. The following studies will help the student to play general fourth intervals (sometimes perfect, sometimes augmented) as they are determined by the tones of Major and minor scales.

All I'm saying is that the Fouths create a different feeling over each mode, to varying degrees.

Here is an example of fourths in the G maj scale, which will give me D Dorian, G mixolydian, A aeolian, F Lydian, and E phrygian.

Gmaj, three note patterns, ascending:

GCDb, ADG, BEA, CGbB, DGC, EAD, GbBE, GCF#, ADG, BEA CF#B

These patterns in Gmaj can be played over any of the modal chord progressions listed above, each with a different feel, as the modes differ... IMHO.

December 5, 2015 at 11:11 PM · I am genuinely interested in what you are trying to convey. And I have a good knowledge of music theory. I know for sure that you don't wait for a certain chord or mode before you are allowed to play in 3rd's or 4th's, because they fit anywhere. I think you are trying to tell us about an exercise in one aspect of jazz improvisation using patterns of the fourth interval, and you personally like the sound of this exercise over a certain chord progression and mode. Because I don't hear Stephan Grapelli playing this and I don't see it in his transcriptions, or anyone else's. However, my interest in this topic lays in the fact that I not so recently began inserting the interval of the fourth now and then while improvising, I just played it anywhere when the fancy took me.....So, no need to be 'curt' , I know the difference between Classical and Rock 'n' Roll.........

December 5, 2015 at 11:50 PM · Ok Henry, I know better where you're coming from now. I may take a page from your book and try playing it anywhere when the fancy takes me. Where you probably have the advantage over me, is that I need to know what modal major scale I'm in, in order to proceed with the fourths. It sounds like you are able to think it out in intervals, and do it spontaneously, whereas I have difficulty with that.

yeah, I know I can get a bit excitable at times... this is my second apology on V.com today!