Bows- How much better are certified ones?

July 15, 2014 at 05:53 PM · Certified bows (and violins) will hold their resale value. Nothing whatever to do with musical quality.

July 15, 2014 at 08:59 PM · William C Retford, an expert bowmaker working at Hills, once said (1970) that half the bows in a saleroom bear false names. A good bow is not only a playing tool but also an investment instrument if kept in good condition. Regardless how well a bow plays for you, for a different player it might not be as well suited. When one turns around to sell a bow without papers how can a prospective buyer be convinced that the bow is authentic? Even if one tries to sell to a dealer, the dealer even if convinced that the bow is made by the person stamped on the stick, he or she might not acknowledge the name to you and then give it a certificate and sell it for a big profit. A French bow by one of the workers of Sartory is and always will be worth more than a German bow (unless that German bow happens to be a Kittel). In my opinion you should go for the French bow with the certificate which will be appreciating at a faster rate than any German bow.

Now talking about certificates, some certificates are respected more than others. For example a Millant or Raffin certificate is an undisputed certificate when it comes to French bows. Other certificates might not be as highly regarded.

July 15, 2014 at 11:47 PM · For that price range you should always buy with certificate and if possible by Raffin or Millant. By the way,8000k for the Gillet is a good price, is it nickel mounted?

July 16, 2014 at 03:17 AM · Nevermind, I don't know what I'm saying!

July 16, 2014 at 05:00 AM · Whoops.... wrong thread. Over to there, now....

July 16, 2014 at 01:38 PM · I've rarely seen certified bows, but plenty of certified people. Just look towards the rostrum ...

(I've at last got the right thread!!)

July 16, 2014 at 04:21 PM · everything above.

there are tons of forgeries out there and having been a bow collector in the past (but no longer), I learned that not only can you NOT trust the auction firms, if you want to re-sell your bow, no matter how convinced you are that is is by so and so, and no matter how well it plays, all that goes out the window when the discriminating buyer sees that it is NOT by so and so.

Also, expert A may be something is a Vigneron, when expert B says it's not.

I won't buy a French bow without papers any longer because it costs too much money in the end when your 20K bow won't fetch 1/4 that.

Unless of course to become just as guilty as those that fooled you, by fooling someone else. I just won't go there. You'd be surprised who would.

August 16, 2014 at 01:24 PM · Thank you all so much for your insights! I appreciate your time. A few questions that I've come up with:

1. So, how do I find a "reputable" person who certifies a bow? Do you all have any suggestions?

2. How can I decipher if a (Nurnberger) German viola bow was made before the War if it doesn't have papers?

3. What's the difference when a viola bow is described as "branded Nurnberger" versus "made by French maker...?"

August 16, 2014 at 02:18 PM · 1) Most big dealers will give a certificate for a fee, a small percentage of the market value of the bow. If you want to save the cost of a certificate, a letter from a dealer stating what the bow is in his or her opinion, will cost less.

2)The person issuing the certificate ought to know which side of the war the bow was made and probably mention it in the certificate.

3)'Branded' means the bow has that particular maker's stamp on it. It doesn't necessarily mean that it was made by him.

Made by a French maker means, it immediately has a certain value for being made in France.

I hope I understood the third question correctly.

August 16, 2014 at 02:23 PM · Thank you!

So, if a German bow isn't certified, then it's not for sure which side of the war it was made during?

And, yes, I think you answered my last question. :)

I appreciate your time!

August 16, 2014 at 02:26 PM · If you want a bow that is used for playing rather than an investment there are many cheap bows including carbon fibre that will be excellent.

Some expensive French bows are only that and not much good for playing with, as are other bows from elswhere as well. Bow collectors only care about how it looks and how much it will appreciate.

I sold an octaganal bow made by a well known English maker after about 3 years as it was not great to play with. But it was a prize winning bow, gold mounted and made for a famous American dealer. (Can't think who, it was a while ago). Fleur de Lyre and all that on the frog. I got three times what I paid for it when Sotherby's sold it. A silver mounted round stick by the same maker at about the same time was a lot cheaper and played wonderfully. When I sold it a player from the London Symphony Orchestra snapped it up. He knew a good bow. It doubled in price over a slightly longer period of time. (These were both viola bows ... dare I mention that on this hallowed site?!)

August 16, 2014 at 04:51 PM · Carla,

if a bow is uncertified, there is no expert proof that it was made by a particular maker,the name on the stick could be false and put there by an unscrupulous person, so whether it was made before or after a war is really irrelevant.

Peter,

I agree that what collectors are after is the provenance of the maker and great condition. Usually great playing bows are not in pristine order as players appreciated their sonar qualities and played them for all their lives.

Surely great makers have made inferior playing bows but on the average their work is pretty much consistent. Take for example Sartoty. His bows are very consistent in workmanship and also playing wise.Voirin for example although always consistently great workmanship, a lot of his bows are useless to a player as they are very light.I think a collector would buy a Voirin like that but not an investor in bows or a dealer, since the light weight excludes all the players from being potential purchasers.

I do also agree that it's possible to find a great playing stick by a lesser known maker which will be a bargain to a player. I have recently bought a Knopf German bow that is excellent in every way and I play it all the time saving my Sartory and Voirin bows. I also have a great playing Bazin, which I bought for Nurnbeger money and I would put any money,that it will outperform any Nurnberger. In my opinion a good French bow has a certain flexibility in its handling that I've only found in the Knopf and no other German bow. Carbon fibre bows can be o.k but I do not think they can compare to a good playing bow at the moment, otherwise we would see soloists buying them and saving the 100000 they have spent on a Peccatte.

Carla if you are looking for a great playing stick, go for a Knopf or a Bausch. These are the old German makers that were making quality bows comparable to the French before the German bow became the commercial item it has become in the late 19th and 20th centuries. As far as investment value is concerned, The Gillet if in good condition will appreciate more readily in the future since he was working for Sartory and their work is similar.

August 16, 2014 at 08:17 PM · Great insights, everyone... thank you so much for giving me great info to ponder. :)