when to raise instrument in orchestra

December 18, 2013 at 08:44 PM · take your cue from the concertmaster

December 19, 2013 at 12:08 AM · null and void

December 19, 2013 at 02:49 AM · There was a thread about that a while back. The consensus was a female first chair player is called the concertmaster (not mistress).

To answer OP's question, take the cue from the conductor unless the section has rests during the opening. Following the conductor will yield a much more synchronized motion than the concertmaster following the conductor and everyone else following her.

December 19, 2013 at 03:57 AM · @smiley that's what I would have thought. Many people, I've noticed, here on violinist.vom and in student orchestras I've played in, I'm always seeing "watch the concertmaster" but especially in student orchestras, when (at least in ours) sometimes the concertmaster is not quite always on top of things, this seems like adding a layer that could cause issues. In general, I do pay attention to what my concertmaster is doing, but she misses a lot of entrances in rehearsals just like anyone else and if everyone were waiting on her our whole section could be thrown into disaster. If the conductor is in tune with the concertmaster and he/she with her/him and the rest of us paying attention to the conductor who's the top dog anyway, it seems like everyone would be better off and in a more efficient manner. But again, I'm here to hear everybody's opinions on the subject not explain my own. :-)

December 19, 2013 at 12:54 PM · To be safe, count the measures!

The conductor doesn't always cue the violins, because there may another section that needs attention. Sometimes the concertmater runs getting the fiddle up.

I make a habit of getting the violin under chin one measure before the entrance. That just happens to be the concertmaster's rule, so that's safe for me.

Just be sure that your head's already into the entrance measure before it comes. DAMHIKT. :-)

December 19, 2013 at 01:57 PM · hmmm.... I use 'concertmaster' regardless of gender... for whatever reason I've never liked 'concertmistress'.... and as I type that the spell-checker doesn't even acknowledge that it's an actual word! :-)

December 19, 2013 at 02:22 PM · Sometimes it depends on the conductor. I worked with one whose initial arm raise WAS his up-beat, and you had to be ready to jump right in. It was dramatic, but confusing till we got used to his style. But if the conductor's hands are 'raised,' I would make sure s/he thinks it's 'rest' not 'get ready,' before I didn't bring my instrument up. You can ask, you know.

In the middle of a piece, after rests, it's more-or-less when you want to. Some players need a moment longer to settle than others, some like to wait. A few never really put their instruments down--if you watch professional orchestras, there is some cohesion, but not rigid uniformity. Not like a military band where everyone holds an instrument at the same angle, raises it at the same moment, etc. Orchestra musicians retain more individuality than that (thank goodness).

December 19, 2013 at 02:43 PM · @John Pierce,

Entrances within the piece obviously must not be held up for the conductors cue, or we would already be measures behind everybody else. I was mostly talking about before the piece starts, not waiting for entrances. I usually get my instrument up on my shoulder two measures before; I try to wait for the concertmaster, but that can be cutting it a little close sometimes, and I would rather make the right entrance than be waiting for her...I know that this is an urge that many would tell me to lose, that I should follow my concertmaster at all costs, but I'm not completely sold on it, for the following reason:

Would the conductor really rather have us all come in at the wrong time and at the wrong spot than have concertmaster have to catch up?

Our youth orchestra has a very good solo player as concertmaster, but a stronger orchestral girl behind her, who never seems to miss an entrance, unlike both the concertmaster and myself (assistant concertmaster). I'm getting better; I used to rely on concertmaster only but am now trying to add my own mental metronome to try to cut down on wrong entrances. However, even though I've played for a long time and am comfortable with the level of music we play, last year was my first time in an orchestra, so I'm learning a lot that many of my violin peers knew years ago, and I'm finding that a lot of people would rather play incorrectly than disobey the concertmaster.

The violins are so out there, though! And, I've been told to play what the music says to play and if the conductor goes awry, just keep going, transferring your attentions to the concertmaster. The conductor is obviously more in charge than the concertmaster, so why should the rule regarding them be so different?

As for the concertmaster/mistress thing, it's not really the point of the post, but our concertmaster is a young woman, I'm assistant concertmaster, and I think we would both feel very strange about being called concertmistresses, though not offended. I would just picture an 18th-19th century English land owner's daughter who plays the violin and feel like I'm in the wrong country and era for that. :)

December 19, 2013 at 02:48 PM · @Marjory,

Thanks for your input! I think that both our conductors (from observing them during rehearsals) thankfully give us more time than that! In rehearsals, they give us at least two beats, and depending on the song, in the concert, they will give us just about as much. The one is a string player, and has asked us to raise our instruments when he lifts his arms up, but I was wondering more for a "in general" than for my own specific case. I'm finding though, that perhaps things aren't as rigid as I thought they might be.

December 19, 2013 at 06:19 PM · This is something that I always wonder about during orchestra! When I was principal second in my youth orchestra I would raise my violin a bar before entry, it also helped the people behind me. In my current orchestra, I follow the concert master who is a professional violinist and very easy to follow. I played as a guest in my hometown orchestra and there was no continuity in terms of picking up instruments and when. In fact, nobody even had the same bowing!!! I guess some orchestras are more picky than others but geez, I would have thought bowing would be standard already. I think I've digressed a bit now :/

December 19, 2013 at 11:19 PM · The English term "Leader" solves the gender problem!

Polly, to help you and your - er - Leader - something I learned from my own leader years ago and practice now. When you have long rests, quite often it's a conjoined series of rests - 8 bars up to letter C, 32 bars to letter D, then another 8 bars before the entry. I'd count the rests (using my fingers - another finger down on the fingerboard each bar, so with the thumb a mechanical aid for groups of 5) and tap the bow tip on the music at each landmark (C, D etc). My desk partner will be doing the same and that way we reassure each other. If either of us is a bit unsure, a quizical look at your partner, and he/she mouths the current count - a nod confirms.

Helps you both have confidence that you're right and I very much doubt if the audience have ever noticed - and who cares if they do? It's just one of the "tricks of the trade"

December 20, 2013 at 12:10 AM · When I'm leading a section, I always get ready 1-2 bars (tempo depending) before we enter. In the section, I'm apt to do the same thing, unless my leader is a late 'upper,' in which case, I try not to be first, but will, if s/he seems to have dozed off (as does happen, with the best of us, occasionally). Most conductors prefer note-ready players--with eyes on the beat--to last-minute arrivals.

But watch the good orchestras--they can give you an excellent range of workable possibilities.

December 20, 2013 at 01:23 PM · Polly sez: I was mostly talking about before the piece starts, not waiting for entrances.

Ah. Gotcha. Interestingly enough, in our Christmas concert series, on most of the pieces, there was an intro before the 1sts came in with the main theme. Someone would occasionally "up violin" when the conductor gave the ready, then immediately "down violin" when they realized they were alone. So the start is sometimes the after-rest entrance, too.

You seem to have a good sense for the protocol. I'd recommend getting together with your section principal and asking how he/she plans starts, entrances after rests, etc. It may be that your asking about it may raise awareness of the issue and be the trigger for the whole section to "sync up."

December 20, 2013 at 01:29 PM · Re: Concertmaster vs. Concertmistress...

I knew a woman who insisted on being called "Concertmaster," because she didn't want any innuendos about being a mistress to the orchestra members.

As "Concertmaster," she had mastery of the orchestra.

'Nuf said.

December 20, 2013 at 02:22 PM · Thanks to everybody who has given input!

I have a fairly good handle on what goes on in at least our orchestra, @John, thanks to the fact that my teacher is one of the two conductors, and I can ask him about things in lessons if I'm confused. There have been a number of those! But I'm fitting in much better now, and feel much more comfy now that I've finished a semester.

I've just noticed that different orchestras do slightly different things, and I couldn't find any policy on the internet regarding instrument-ready, so I thought I would check out what you all thought, and it's been interesting!

I'm amongst the oldest members of our youth orchestra, falling under the category of young adult, but have had so much fun learning all the nuances of orchestral protocol. Thanks for adding to it by taking the time to share!