Non-Western music for violin and related instruments

July 17, 2013 at 11:14 PM · Arifa, were you brought up with this music. If you were brought up with just western music, I think you might be playing out of tune, the same way they tend to play out of tune when playing western music. However, having said that, I think the music of western Turkey does have the same Aeolian, Ionian, Dorian and Phrygian modes as we have in western music, and Israeli and Arab music too.

July 18, 2013 at 04:25 AM · Whew, John. This is a huge topic you just unleashed. But first, my background is rooted in Western classical music from early childhood. Mostly. I am also Jewish and I remember as a child being blown away by the Hebrew liturgical music during the High Holy Days. The cantor was brilliant (he had also trained in opera) and the choir exceptional. In addition, my grandmother from eastern Europe lived with us and her nephew was a gifted violinist who used to come and play all the old songs (klezmer) for her. So, even though the Eastern Europe versions of the liturgical music and songs omitted most of the "out of tune" notes, they were for the most part based on the scales and modes of the Middle East.

The part about the "out of tune" notes is the huge topic. These are the microtones, the tones that fall between our half tones. Before I go more into that I'll make a slight digression into what I hope won't turn into a tirade about equal temperament. We've gotten so used to the idea that an octave contains twelve equally spaced notes. The reason for the twelve notes derives from the harmonic series, and the modes of the ancient Greeks were based on those notes. The modes you referred to simply have different starting points (tonics) within the same major scale. But the notes were not equally spaced; they varied according to their position in the scale, and the singers and instrument players had to adjust the pitches for whatever scale they were playing in.

This was before the development of music that modulated to different keys, and also before the appearance of keyboard instruments. These developments in Western music required tempering the notes of the octave so that all the keys (the twelve major and twelve minor scales) could be played. This is because if the notes were purely based in the harmonic series, the circle of fifths would be off. For a long time, half the keys were off limits and not used. Anyway, many strategies were tried for several centuries before the mathematics developed that allowed tuners to precisely achieve the equal temperament. Equal temperament seems to work because each note is out of tune just ever so slightly so that it's hardly noticeable. BUT the problem is that it is out of tune just enough so that musicians who are trained in pure harmonics (e.g. in the modal musical systems like raga and maqam) will feel a jarring effect listening to the music.

It wasn't always like this in Western music. The mathematics that gave us equal temperament came toward the end of the nineteenth century and equal temperament wasn't widely used until well into the early twentieth century. So all the great Western classical composers before that time used other tempering systems. JS Bach had his own system (recently rediscovered by a harpsichordist named Bradley Lehman). I had my piano tuned to Bach's system according to Lehman and it now sounds stunningly gorgeous because all the notes are in simple fraction relationship to each other instead of decimals that go to infinity. So the instrument sings and resonates. There are some pure thirds as well as pure fifths, and all the keys have their unique flavor, as opposed to the sameness of all keys in equal temperament. Lehman's website is www.larips.com and has all the information for tuning. End of digression.

So what you call the "out of tune" quality of eastern music is actually very much "in tune" because the microtones are extensions of the harmonic series to include more and more simple fractions and divisions of the string length. They sound out of tune to us because we're not used to them. I've been listening to this music for awhile now and it sounds very beautiful to me. Even though I still can't sing the microtonal notes very well, I'm starting to play them on the viola so they sound OK (to my ears). It'll just take practice. I bought a lavta saz, a kind of hybrid Greek/Turkish plucked string instrument that has 25 unequal frets to the octave, so I can get accustomed to hearing and playing the microtones. And, aside from the microtones, yes the eastern music systems also use all the Greek modes you mentioned. Microtones are not used in all their scales, but the most authentic music does not use equal temperament. It is based in harmonics.

This was a very long response to your comment. I hope it wasn't too long. Thanks for writing.

July 18, 2013 at 05:43 AM · Wow. Not too long for me. I am learning to play Klezmer and from time to time get to enjoy hearing Middle Eastern and Ragas.

Thanks!

July 18, 2013 at 12:00 PM · First, to be quite honest about myself: I suspect that the vibrato I use that mostly masks my own "approximation" of intonation (Yes, Leopold Mozart, you've rumbled me) more than hides the difference between true and modern-western-tempered intervals. The latter aspect may also partially explain the attractiveness of the vibrato used by Isaye onwards (including, of course, the great Kreisler).

Secondly, simple fractions and divisions of the string length don't necessarily correspond to extensions of the harmonic series. This becomes obvious when we consider the Thai scale, which consists of seven equally tempered notes to the octave (which is the eighth). Their fifth interval veers from the perfect fifth by approximately twice the amount that our equal temperament fifth does.

I do wonder how important the harmonic series is in determining how we perceive music, and whether the principal factor isn't primarily pattern recognition in the sounds we're used to (Jewish Lord Robert Winston's four lecture series is quite interesting). Composers like Cage and Stockhausen were able naturally to transcend these cultural barriers - I can't do so naturally, and don't really appreciate their music either.

I've toyed with the idea of getting a saz (I used to play the violin/viola for a Turkish language church in the UK, where I got to know a couple of Phrygian mode tunes - I was already familiar with the Dorian mode, from tunes like the Agincourt Song, Bangor and Martyrs - I've improvised in public on the last on several occasions, and led it on the keyboard for psalm-singing in an English language church, but not using Hately's time signature nor harmony). Where did you buy yours?

Is there any point talking here about Gentile Max Bruch and Kol Nidrei?

July 18, 2013 at 05:14 PM · Hello John, greetings Francesca.

John, I believe that vibrato fluctuation around the pure note is one of the most valuable qualities of violin family. Vibrato allows the musician to play along with the keyboard and valved instruments and still keep perfect pitch in the mix.

Thank you for the correction about harmonic series and simple ratios. Although while some of the simple ratios may not be distinguishable in the harmonic series, just the fact that they are simple ratios makes them at least harmonically congruent. They will still feel good, as opposed to equal temperament which does have a jarring quality. There's a wonderful book on maqam, the Arabic musical system by Cameron Powers, "Lost Secrets of Perfect Harmony: Ancient Music of the Indigenous Middle East" which goes over many of the maqamat (plural: scales) and shows all the microtonal choices based on "just intonation," intonation based on simple ratios. He includes precise cents and hertz listings. (I tuned my lavta/saz by using his charts.) In his introductory material he includes wave-form images that show the regularly repeating harmonious mutually re-enforcing patterns produced by just intonation intervals and the chaotic non-harmonious interference patterns produced by intervals in equal temperament. Just on a basic sensate feeling level, I believe that the harmonic congruence of the notes gives a subtle feeling of well-being that adds to the enjoyment of the music, possibly irrespective of whether they are familiar patterns.

There are quite a few contemporary composers who are exploring the vast world of harmonics that opens up in just intonation, but I personally don't care for this music either. I much prefer the traditional music that has naturally evolved ver organically and intuitively by listening deeply to the tones and intervals. This does not necessarily mean that composers have to stay within the traditional cultures' style of music. Check out the music of Ross Daly, an Irish ex-pat living in Crete and a master multi-instrumentalist whose primary instrument is the Cretan lyra. He has a school, Labyrinth Workshop, in Crete and teaches modal composition.

I bought my lavta/saz from a master Greek luthier, Dimitris Rapakousios who builds top quality instruments. This particular instrument has a lavta body and saz neck. The lavta body gives a deeper, more resonant sound like the oud, and the longer saz neck gives it the saz style of playing. Four double courses of strings tuned D-A-D-A. Twenty-five unequal frets to the octave.

By the way, I love the phrygian mode, called Kurd in the maqam system. It's one of my favorites. The maqam system opens a vast world of so many different scales, way beyond just major and minor, just as the raga system does. And the rhythms they use is another whole universe. I'm smitten.

July 18, 2013 at 06:34 PM · Francesca, you may be interested in this book and CD set: All Time Klezmers. Here is the Amazon link:

http://www.amazon.com/Time-Klezmers-Violin-Joachim-Johow/dp/9043121789/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1374171985&sr=1-1&keywords=all+time+klezmers

You get sheet music and CD with a great, lively klezmer band. Each piece is played once (with lead voice played by either clarinet or accordian, both excellent) and then played again, without the lead voice (and you're the star player!). It's so much fun.

July 18, 2013 at 08:44 PM · The Phrygian Mode is called Kurd????? Real traditional Kurdish music is microtones gone mad, shrillpipes and everything. I heard it played at a celebration. You and I wouldn't stand a chance with it, though the two composers I mentioned might understand it.

July 19, 2013 at 02:07 AM · Very interesting re Bach's system of tuning. I had thought that it was the same as what we call "equal temperament". Can you play in all keys with it? I would think so, considering Bach's "well-tempered clavier" in all the keys. I'd like to understand this better. There was a French tuner who came out with an equal temperament system - but based on the 5th, not the octave. He felt that this would work better with the violin family that of course tunes the strings in 5ths.

Anyway, in India, besides the indigenous sarangi, there is a long tradition of using the Western violin as well. I took a few lessons in Indian violin playing many years ago.

July 19, 2013 at 04:16 PM · Raphael, yes indeed, Bach's tuning works in all keys. If you go to www.larips.com you will see the whole story of how Bradley Lehman "discovered" Bach's tuning system: he unraveled the "code" from a handwritten "design" Bach had inscribed on the frontispiece of the Well Tempered Clavier. which was Bach's showpiece for demonstrating how a "well-tempered" clavier can perform in all keys with grace, beauty and facility. You are not alone in believing that the "well-tempered" refers to equal temperament, a very common error. Many musicians today are perplexed by accounts from musicians and composers in the past who referred to the unique qualities of the different keys, how one is moody, another bright, nostalgic, heroic, etc. Equal temperament wiped all that out. Now all keys sound the same except for their pitches. With Bach/Lehman tuning this richness is restored.

What does it sound like? Violin family musicians use vibrato to cover the range of true pitch, which is probably done instinctively because it sounds better. So the tuning really applies more to keyboard and fixed valve instruments. Pianists who are used to ET will notice a difference: many notes will sound "out of tune" compared to what they are used to. But after awhile of playing, well, my experience was one of utter joy. The whole piano was so much more resonant and all the rough edges of the artificially out of tune notes I was accustomed to in ET were smoothed out. And, wonder of wonders, the keys really do have unique flavors. The tuning is not that far off from ET that it will be disturbing. It is only initially that the musician is aware of the difference. After that it is just sublime. You can hear audio clips of the difference on the larips.com website, where Bradley also goes into detail about the mechanics and theory. More and more classical musicians are beginning to adopt this tuning, some recorded, and these recordings are also listed on the website.

Thanks for mentioning the Indian violinists. They're amazing. I'm mostly familiar with L. Subramaniam. He does some eastern/western fusion music, but I mostly love his pure Indian ragas. What he does with a violin! I'd love to hear how your lessons in Indian violin were for you, any pointers on technique, style that you can pass on . . . .

July 20, 2013 at 01:21 AM · Hi Arifa. Again, very interesting re the piano tuning. Any single approach seems very complex, and never quite right to me, though the ear adjusts. When I have time I'll check out the sites you mentioned.

Re my Indian violin playing lessons, they were many years ago, and I only had 3, as my teacher left town. I do remember my shifting getting a little smoother, with a lot of one-finger scale (raga pattern) work. We held the violin the "regular" Western way, with or w.o. a SR. The real traditional way is to sit cross-legged (which we did) but then to rest the scroll on the toe and the lower bout more or less stomach or chest level. Oddly enough, while the chinrest doesn't contact the chin or anything else in this method, they usually leave it on. Why, I don't know.

July 20, 2013 at 04:51 PM · ciao arifa - i play medieval, happy-clappy pilgrim-type songs ("cantigas de santa maria,""llibre vermell," etc.) on a lovely, egyptian made oud but very few arabic tunes - only one, in fact and that's more andalucian than arabic. i have a shoulderless viola which sort of looks medieval ( ... ) and a short, medieval-style bow and i would be very interested in learning how to inject these pieces with an arabic flavor. may i ask which tunings do you generally use on your viola and at what pitch do you normally play - 440hz or lower?

July 20, 2013 at 05:00 PM · a quick look on youtube revealed this - viola player is leanne darling:

July 21, 2013 at 12:06 AM · Raphael, a piano will never sound right to a violinist. It's an incredible instrument and can do wondrous things, but any tempering will make it sound off, and if it isn't tempered, its usefulness is severely restricted. I chose the Bach tuning because even though it is tempered, at least the notes have some connection to harmonics, which ET does not. Plus, I figure anything Bach came up with musically definitely cannot be surpassed by mere mortal engineers and technicians.

I just re-read this from your second post to this discussion:

"Secondly, simple fractions and divisions of the string length don't necessarily correspond to extensions of the harmonic series. This becomes obvious when we consider the Thai scale, which consists of seven equally tempered notes to the octave (which is the eighth). Their fifth interval veers from the perfect fifth by approximately twice the amount that our equal temperament fifth does."

I'm not familiar with Thai music but now that I read this again I see it totally confirms what I've been saying about equal temperament. Whenever you try to impose a system that makes the notes equal, the harmonics are distorted. As you said, their fifth is way off. By the way, in equal temperament the fifth in each key is usually very close to a pure fifth, just slightly off. I wonder if this scale is their traditional indigenous scale, or if it is a modern modification. Maybe I've been idealizing indigenous music, but I thought they were pretty much all derived from harmonics.

Bill, I keep regular viola tuning. Even though most middle eastern bowed instruments are open tuned (e.g. DADA), I'm used to viola tuning and it works. I hold the viola vertically, held between my knees so it's more like a cello position; and I bow it underhanded, like lyra and kamanche (and sarangi) players.

If you want to incorporate more arabic flavor in your playing, I'd highly recommend the book I already mentioned: Lost Secrets of Perfect Harmony by Cameron Powers. They have it at Amazon. Learning the scales is the main thing, because even if the piece you are playing is in straight major or minor (also included amongst the maqamat) you can always add an improvisation (taqsim) that takes off from that scale and moves into something more exotic sounding. And you have the perfect instruments for doing that. Then, along with learning the scales (maqamat), listen to lots of Arabic music and other Middle Eastern music: Turkish, Azerbaijani . . . . YouTube is a great resource. You can do a search on any particular maqam and you'll get lots of examples.

Thanks for the link to the ensemble. Nice. I checked out another of their offerings, the one called Kurd, in which the violist has a solo taqsim. She plays beautifully and really knows her maqamat. (Plus, I love the sound of her viola; what a gorgeous instrument.) All of them are really good. I greatly appreciated the nay player because I have a nay and I have never been able to get a real tone out of it. They are not easy.

July 21, 2013 at 02:09 AM · thank you arifa. i prefer the traditional tuning as well - everything in open tuning sounds the same to me.

this might be interesting (as usual, i posed a question without first looking for information before hand):

http://www.violaonline.com/unit6_intro.html

July 31, 2013 at 05:14 AM · Arifa, thanks very much for the Klezmer book rec.

I have several books but I'm about to lose my Klezmer partner and the idea of a CD I can play along with is very appealing at this point.

July 31, 2013 at 10:49 PM · Francesca, I think you'll find playing with the CD, and hearing the band and lead voices (clarinet or accordian) very inspiring. The inflections and voice-like sighs, moans, weeping, laughing, smirking, etc. are incredible. I spend time just practicing trying to replicate all those nuances on the viola. It's very fun. I hope you enjoy your new klezmer partners!