I was advised that a bow should be about 25-33% the value of a violin.

October 3, 2012 at 05:11 PM · Yes...that's just a rough estimate to remind people that the bow is a partner in the sound that you coax out of your violin...and not just a minor consideration.

A price point is harder to determine...like anything else you can pay as much as you want to pay...and then some (paying for provenance for example).

Certainly don't skimp on a bow if you don't have to. If your violin is worth $500 and you fall in love with a $500 bow...go ahead and buy the bow!

October 3, 2012 at 05:22 PM · its not true, because the price isn't important at all. Its just misleading. Fortunately or unfortunately the price sais nothing about the playing qualities. Perhaps you can find less rubbish with higher priced bows.

October 3, 2012 at 05:41 PM · Of course these kinds of things are just very general rules of thumb. Ultimately you want your violin and bow to be well matched to one another and to you.

But the 1/4 to 1/3 rule is not bad. If anything people are usually surprised that they might have to spend that much for a bow. Let me put it this way: A man who has just spent $9000 for a violin may find it difficult to convince his wife that he now needs to spend $3000 on a bow.

A pro that I admire told me that while the best bows obviously are still pernambuco, these days one needs to spend over $2000 to find a wood bow that plays as well and and sounds as good as the higher-end (ca. $400-600) carbon fiber bows. So if your budget drives you to seek maximum value, you should consider CF bows.

October 3, 2012 at 08:35 PM · I didn't get that memo...my bow is worth more than my violin! :P

I agree, that figure really tries to convey the concept that a bow is not just a random stick; that it actually contributes a lot to the sound and articulation that a player can produce. I've met far too many students who don't seem to understand that a good bow, dollar for dollar, goes a longer way than getting a slightly better instrument.

I'd also venture that the $400+ bows from the makers at Arcos Brasil are more than a match for any of the carbon fiber offerings at the same price, particularly if you like the feel and sound of pernambuco more.

October 3, 2012 at 09:17 PM · It is indeed, a very rough estimate and rule of thumb. I have a collection of about 10 violins and more than a dozen bows. I've found from experiment that certain violins and certain bows go particularly well together in terms of sound and feel - how the rubber meets the road. As it happens, one of my fine Chinese violins, a beautiful ornamneted copy of the "Hellier Strad" pairs up really well with my most expensive bow - a FR Simon, which is worth a lot more than the violin. I have other fine old French bows, as well as one old French violin, a Desiré, anno 1854. Yet I pair that one up alternatley with one of my best Chinese bows by Wang Hong, or my beautiful American bow by Robert Halsey. You just never know!

I don't know at what point a wooden bow would be a better bet than a carbon fiber bow. For up to a few hundred dollars - maybe higher - carbon will often yield more bang for the buck - unless you find a very decent Chinese bow, some such of which I have. I can't see spending $2K on a carbon fiber bow. I've noticed in trying some carbon fiber bows that the expensive ones often don't play better than the cheap ones - though they look nicer. I've yet to try a carbon fiber bow whose feel really pleased me, though there are probably some out there. All of them tend to be more durable, and the better ones are often quite good for technical bowings, evenness, etc. But a really fine perambuco bow, matched with a fine violin is likely to render more complexity and a wider and more subtle pallette of colors.

October 3, 2012 at 11:32 PM · at $5 per gram for pernambucco, and avg bow weight 60 grams....hmmm. Im sticking with the carbon fibre until my lottery ship comes in.

October 4, 2012 at 05:48 AM · When I bought my violin, I was determined to buy a cf bow because "everyone" recommended them. But after trying many and getting frustrated, I went back to wood and immediately fell in love with one from Water Violet. As a final test, I went to my local luthier with the WV and tried out every cf bow they had in my price range (up to about $700) against it. Exactly one cf bow sounded good with my violin and it cost only $50 less than the Water Violet. I decided to end my search right there and get the Water Violet. Every now and then I think I should have taken both to my teacher for her final opinion but I have no regrets. And coincidently(?), that bow cost just about 1/3 the cost of the violin.

October 4, 2012 at 07:04 AM · "I was advised that a bow should be about 25-33% the value of a violin."

This approximation just about works for quality instruments and pernambuco bows of about 150 years age. A Vuillaume for £150k would probably work well with a Dominique Peccatte bow. But it's at best an intellectual construct of more help to dealers than players; these folk can assess the up-market fantasy world in which a top violinist lives and match his/her fiddle with a suitably prestigious and also costly bow !!

I heard of a player who owned a Strad violin and 6 Bultitude bows. All the bows together would have cost but a tiny fraction of the value of the violin.

In my own case (no pun intended!) the "W.E.H.& S" Hill bow I use on my modern Cremonese viola cost MORE than the instrument - admittedly purchased a decade later.

I agree with Raphael Klayman's statement "I've found from experiment that certain violins and certain bows go particularly well together in terms of sound and feel - how the rubber meets the road." Each fiddle I have seems to have it's own preferred partner - in particular one Strad copy prefers round sticks whereas my other fiddles like octagonals.

Those CF bows can work very well indeed - a dealer put one into my hand once to test a fiddle and I thought it was a Tubbs. They are a great invention - but I don't own any; I prefer to stick with my pernambuco bows.

October 4, 2012 at 10:50 AM · Within categories, that's not a truly bad estimate: a new bow from a prize-winning American maker will be about $4-6,000, and a similar-pedigree violin will be $20-30,000. Older French bows will start to get really interesting at about $10,000, although Italian fiddles are, sadly, going to be much more than $50,000 if you get the same quality.

But you have to go with what works. A good modern instrument could mate perfectly with a $25,000 antique bow and give a better sound than any $50,000 antique violin. Certainly you'll have a better chance of improving a $200,000 violin with a $50,000 bow than by trading up to a $250,000 violin.

At the other end of the scale, Kreisler used all sorts of cheaper bows to get miracles out of his Guarnerius.

October 4, 2012 at 12:39 PM · My sense is that vintage violins, except the very top layer, aren't gaining in these economic times, while excellent older bows of fine and rare bow woods are, so potentially raise the percentage of violin price for an appropriately-matched bow.

October 4, 2012 at 12:45 PM · "At the other end of the scale, Kreisler used all sorts of cheaper bows to get miracles out of his Guarnerius."

Kreisler usually used top of the line Hill bows. Compared to Tourtes and Pecattes, etc., they could be called cheap in terms of commercial value. But they can be very fine bows, indeed, in terms of both workmanship and playing qualities.

Years ago I had an opportunity to visit the Library of Congress in Washington DC. I playeed on the Brookings Amati, the Kreisler del Gesu, a bow by Tourte, and one of Kreisler's Hill bows. I liked that much more than the Tourte. In fact, leaving re-sale commercial value aside, had that been some kind of fantasy shopping spree that I'd won and could take home just one item for my personal use, at the time my choice would have been that Hill bow even more than either of those master violins!

Sue - at auctions, both name violins and bows are still running strong, even in these times. But if we're concerned with instrinsic playing qualities, as opposed to higher end investments, which most of us are, that's another issue, and we can still do well for ourselves.

October 5, 2012 at 08:52 PM · You can even find Brazilwood bows that are more than decent, especially for violas. Some new Pernambuco and carbon-fibre bows seem too stiff for most violas, and probably for many violins/violinists too.

For students, there are chinese bows made from Manilkara Kauki(also called Caqui or Wongi)wood that are really priceworthy. I suspect good bowmakers might start to explore that species, if they haven't already. If supplies are good, and it's easy to find straight grained blanks, that might help to lower the prices a bit.

October 6, 2012 at 01:26 PM · I don't agree with those that say 'it doesn't matter'. It does! You will not get the best from a fine instrument with a student bow, it's common sense. At the same time, don't spend silly money on a bow formerly owned by Lord Menhuin etc., for a violin worth £150. That would be bonkers. In the meantime, 25-33% is a good (and reliable) benchmark. I'm stealing myself to part with £3,000-4,000 for my next bow...

October 6, 2012 at 01:49 PM · Just to make sure: I am not saying that the bow doesn't matter. I myself own a pretty expensive bow of Thomas Gerbeth and I think it was one of the best things that I could find. Not only a good bow but also a good value.

BUT, if you are looking to find a good bow, never count out the cheap wood bows (not necessarily from cheap wood ;), wich may have a larger quality spread but could potentially include some bows, wich come very close to the playing qualities of very expensive bows.

To me Carbon bows are not an option, maybe because I was at a Waldorfschule, maybe because I just disliked all that I tested so far.

Its easy to say, that a bow should cost around 33 percent of a violin today, because thats what the prices are on the market with new stuff. You will find a master-violin for around 15t Euros, a bow in the same high "class" for around 4-5t Euros. But these prices are just directed by the market. Cheap bows can match good violins and the other way around. A good bow can make a cheap violin sound great too.

October 6, 2012 at 08:21 PM · Hmm. Can't say I've ever tried CF bows, perhaps the purist in me baulks at them. Anyway, I would not shop around for a high - or even medium priced bow for a cheap violin in a effort to get a 'good' sound out of it, it just doesn't make any sense. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Much of this, unsurprisingly, is personal, but it seems to me that purchasing the best violin you can afford, and then applying the 25-33% rule of thumb to obtain a good match has to be the way to go. If you spend all your money on the violin (like I did, ahem!), then making do with an average bow is okay. Buying a cheapy fiddle and then matching it with a vintage french stick just doesn't add up. When a better violin turns up, there's no guarantee it will be a good match. The 25-33% thing is surprisingly reliable in my experience as a player and teacher.

October 6, 2012 at 11:38 PM · If you have a decend sounding instrument and a bad bow, then you probably should go with a better bow than with a better violin. It is only a question of matching things, not a question of the price.

If you have both a crappy violin and a crappy bow you may use 2 thirds of your money for the violin while spending the rest of it on a bow indeed... But in reality people tend to spend all the money on the best thing they find and then wait until they have enough money for a bow :D Thats just how most of us work and it has its reasons...

October 7, 2012 at 05:51 AM · Regarding carbon fiber braided bows. Met a guy at a Celtic festival last week and his father is a CF bow dealer.

He claimed that frankly you can get CF bows out of China that for $150 or $200 are every bit as good as the extremely expensive CF bows.

The catch is, it's somewhat of a lottery, in that the quality-control isn't good if you go the "cheaper" route as opposed to paying top dollar and buying an expensive CF bow from a reputable company.

Still, at $150? Assuming he's correct? I'd rather buy a bunch of $150 CF bows and pick my favorite than buy one extremely expensive "name brand" CF bow.

October 7, 2012 at 11:36 AM · That's also true, in my experience, of pernambuco Chinese bows in c. the $250 category. I got one, as did a friend of mine, that broke appropos of normal playing. Then I have a few others (from the same dealer who replaced the broken ones) for several years that are amazingly good.